1. DLP Flash Christmas Competition + Writing Marathon 2024!

    Competition topic: Magical New Year!

    Marathon goal? Crank out words!

    Check the marathon thread or competition thread for details.

    Dismiss Notice
  2. Hi there, Guest

    Only registered users can really experience what DLP has to offer. Many forums are only accessible if you have an account. Why don't you register?
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Introducing for your Perusing Pleasure

    New Thread Thursday
    +
    Shit Post Sunday

    READ ME
    Dismiss Notice

DLP's stance on /r/HPFanfiction's abandoned story project

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Lord Ravenclaw, Jun 8, 2015.

  1. Perspicacity

    Perspicacity Destroyer of Worlds ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2007
    Messages:
    1,022
    Location:
    Where idiots are not legally permitted to vote
    High Score:
    3,994
    I'm pretty agnostic on the whole thing but I respect the DLP community's choice of standards to observe writers' ownership (in the Bill & Ted "be excellent to one another" sense, not the legal sense) of their fanfiction creations. Myself, I tend to ask permission even if borrowing a plot bunny and I do appreciate when folks ask my permission to take over one of my stories (permission I always grant, though I do ask the borrower that they reference the original work as a courtesy).

    In the few cases where someone has taken one over without permission, I just roll with it. Chances are they aren't going to get nearly the same exposure and if they do, it's pretty obvious by the time stamp who originated the work.
     
  2. Joe's Nemesis

    Joe's Nemesis High Score: 2,058 ~ Prestige ~

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2012
    Messages:
    1,191
    High Score:
    2,058
    I don't see the equivalence. FF is not published authors writing other published author's works. We're not taking money from the author's pocket, nor putting money in our own, which would be no Less Wrong than stealing.

    On the other hand, trading off other FF works (and I'm not talking about paying homage with a quote or the like) is taking someone else's work on the same level, and building it for yourself without their approval. It gains you a ready made audience that isn't yours, because you're trading on a name or story that you didn't create, but are equal to (both FF authors).
     
  3. Xiph0

    Xiph0 Yoda Admin

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Messages:
    9,498
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    West Bank
    Fandoms are built on appropriating ideas from one source, I suppose. But within the fandom we're all equal. Anyway, I'd rather people be more original anyway. As JoJo mentioned, the trunk meme shouldn't even be a thing. I would hope authors would find inspiration in all the many many different angles and branching pathways off the universe, and not in the other fanfiction they're reading.
     
  4. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    8,379
    Location:
    The South
    It might also be relevant to say that just because an author hasn't updated their story in three years does NOT mean they consider it to be abandoned. Maybe they finished school, got married, changed jobs, moved, and had kids. But in the back of their mind is that partially completed fanfic that one day they want to get back to and finish.

    Having someone just step in for me in that situation, without getting a very clear 'yes' from me, would piss me off. It's my story, damnit, and I'm writing it primarily for myself.

    If I truly felt that I was done with a story and would never continue it at all, for whatever reason, I might let someone else run with it. But like others have said it would depend specifically on who asked, and unless I'd labeled it as 'abandoned' in my mind then the answer would always be no.

    It's not like they can't write their own story with a similar premise. If they're as good or better than the original story, then they didn't need to bank of it to begin with. If they aren't able to do it justice (and most of the stories people are going to want to continue are 'good' ones according to some criteria or other), then I probably wouldn't want them doing it.

    I suppose it /does/ matter that we're talking about fanfiction here. We're all 'stealing' from canon in some sense, and nothing we write as fanfiction will ever belong to us. So in sense there isn't a leg to stand on - it's just netiquette. So while I might object, I probably wouldn't make a huge stink over it personally, but I would definitely mention that I did not approve.
     
  5. KrzaQ

    KrzaQ Denarii Host DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    May 9, 2008
    Messages:
    1,404
    Location:
    Poland
    I see nothing wrong with fanfiction of fanfiction - as long as it's distributed without copying someone else's work. So, the following is okay in my opinion:

    "what if story: x happened differently in chapter 42 of [link]", no content has been copied.

    On the other hand, copying someone's work and uploading it as a whole fic is a major dick move if permission has not been explicitly granted.
     
  6. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign –§ Prestigious §– DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2013
    Messages:
    37
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The Holy Moose Empire
    High Score:
    6900
    I just wish people wouldn't be cunts, but that's asking a lot on the Internet.
     
  7. KGB

    KGB Headmaster

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,067
    I think the "no answer = yes" was probably born out of authors that have abandoned fanfiction all together. It's not about stories that have laid dormant for a year, but ones that have been for 5+ and the author is unreachable.

    Still just continuing a fic is probably the wrong thing to do anyways. Just borrow the ideas you like and tell the story you want around it.
     
  8. Jarik

    Jarik Chief Warlock

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2008
    Messages:
    1,447
    Location:
    Melbourne
    I believe that in the Fanfiction community, ideas and concepts should be free and uncontrolled. This is, in essence, one of the core selling points Fanfiction has over published fiction to me. You can see similar concepts implemented again and again, being polished over time and with slightly different executions until something pops out the end as a masterpiece.

    I think it's completely reasonable that someone else can come along and write a virtually identical attempt at the same story without your permission. If it's better than the original, then the whole community has benefited. Hell, even if the summary is something as blatant as "This is another take on Jarik's fic", I don't really see any problem with it. I would say if they're marketing it like that, there's a good chance that the fic is worse than the original, but I still call it fair.

    Fanfiction of fanfiction, such as a work that may reference another story and call itself an alternative ending/scene/continuation/etc, also seems perfectly reasonable to me. The fanfic community is a competitive market, and if the derivative of the original story is more popular than the original, the whole community is again, better off for it. Regarding Definitely Not Taure's post on creative control, the derivative work would still need to reference the original and it's pretty clear they are still separate works (no different than writing a fanfiction sequel to an ongoing series while awaiting the next book).

    Where it becomes a clear no-no is any instance where the actual writing is copied into a new work. The writing isn't just ideas or concepts, but the direct product of labour and work. Republishing any bits of writing without the permission of the original author (even if they are referenced) is clear plagiarism and completely unreasonable.

    Of course, with all this in mind, I think it is a polite to ask for permission, but I still don't think it should be considered unreasonable not to (just maybe a bit rude).

    My two cents anyway.
     
  9. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    8,379
    Location:
    The South
    But isn't this what is being talked about? Reposting the fic with the 'finished' ending? I could be wrong, but that was my assumption.

    What I think you're talking about would be more like the following:

    "Gilded and Gold" by CheddarTrek is a superbadass fanfic that everyone loves, but Ched hasn't updated it in 3+ years and has been unreachable for that period of time. Jarik wants to see it finished, so Jark creates a new fanfiction entitled "Unauthorized Continuation of Ched's Gilded and Gold." He doesn't post anything written by CheddarTrek, and in his first chapter he posts a link to Ched's story.

    In that case I'd say it's still polite to ask... but in this description it's more 'fanfiction of fanfiction' than continuing someones work. At least as I'm defining the terms. I have less of a problem with this compared to what I thought we were talking about. Still not a polite thing to do, but it's less asshole-ish than claiming to have 'finished' someone else's story.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2015
  10. T3t

    T3t Purple Beast of DLP ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2011
    Messages:
    176
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    High Score:
    3,164
    To the best of my ability to discern, DLP forbids "fanfiction of fanfiction", even that which does not use any text of the original story.

    Would appreciate some clarification, but I'm pretty sure that's what's going on.
     
  11. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    8,379
    Location:
    The South
    I'm still supportive of DLP's stance, don't get me wrong. I think it's fantastic that the site supports it's authors like that, especially when said authors haven't given permission for things to be continued.

    But at least if we're talking about the example I gave above I can now understand why some people don't see the problem.
     
  12. Xiph0

    Xiph0 Yoda Admin

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Messages:
    9,498
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    West Bank
    That's not what is going on, but I would have to check myself to see on that one tbh. It doesn't come up.
     
  13. T3t

    T3t Purple Beast of DLP ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2011
    Messages:
    176
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    High Score:
    3,164
    Ok - I was always under the impression that story continuations were forbidden because they were derivative without permission, not because they copied text straight from the other author's story. This never really made much sense to me, given the basic premise of fanfiction, but I understand having a community norm in that direction - it is one of basic politeness.
     
  14. JoJo23

    JoJo23 Unspeakable

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2008
    Messages:
    702
    I think its a bit more complex than that. The fanfiction community is built on mutual courtesy. One of "The Rules" is that you dont adopt someones story without permission.

    You can say there are elements of hypocrisy in regards to continuations of JKR's work, but I wouldnt agree. JKR is not in the community, and she has given a general endorsement regardless.
     
  15. someone010101

    someone010101 High Inquisitor

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    513
    I always saw it that way:

    Fanfictions a derivative work, but it doesn't pretend it's the original. The continuations we speak of do. And straight out copying text is lame (unless you have permission and the originals missing).

    But I'm not an author or anything, so what do I know ...
     
  16. Nauro

    Nauro Headmaster

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2011
    Messages:
    1,182
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Lithuania
    I dislike how this discussion reeks of hypocrisy. For me, fanfiction is always a derivative work, and it would naturally follow that any other derivative works of the derivative works are fine - even without permission.

    After all, if you can write a SOIAF fanfic, because the film version doesn't have the stance of Martin, you'd better keep your dislike of the derivatives of your fanwork to yourself.

    Personally, I understand and want to see one thing - and one thing only - it is polite to ask before using anything directly.

    Directly is the most critical word here. Want to have something similar to my plot? Want to have a story set after my work? As an alternate path of my work? I have no ground to stand on to forbid that. The second I start screaming thief - I'm being a hypocrite - because I'm the one who stole the setting and used the setup of canon universe.

    The way it is phrased now, there's not a clear line on this, however you look at it. There are no cases differentiated, only the general stance of forbidding everything, unless explicitly given the permission. It's, perhaps, too narrow minded.

    If someone wants to write a continuation, and goes for me for permission - I am expecting a continuation - and not a repost of my stuff with a new 1000 word chapter. Because that's what continuation means for me - writing new things that are based on my works.

    This is even what I'd support, in general - people taking old, unfinished works as a base, and without using copying scenes from them - writing a continuation. Yet - the stance seems to be hostile on that front - and the courtesy requires to ask. (Even if you never got anything resembling permission from G.R.R. Martin to make fun of Sansa, I have to get your permission to write a chapter using your OC, who I found interesting? What?)

    If you want to repost bits of my story, ask not for a continuation, but rather. "Can I use your scene X in my fanfic, that's about your characters?". This hasn't happened yet, and I would probably agree without much thought.

    The question of "Can I repost your whole story X as story Y and add 1000 words to it?" begs a no, but I am still unsure what is my moral ground to stand there. (If you give me credit, I see no way to stop you there, beside complaining really loudly.)

    With all fanfiction, I feel that whenever I'm writing words to the internet - the moment they leave my personal computer or cloud storage and become public - I lose the rights to keep these contained. You don't post stupid pictures of yourself hoping that no one would spread them? Don't post anything you don't truly own and expect it to be protected.

    People do, though. It's surprising, if I can understand the reasoning behind it.

    In the end, there are three points I wanted to make with this mess of a post:

    First, it would be better not to have hard stances against derivative work, and it would serve everyone good to get our heads from the superiority clouds. While writing fanfiction we have stolen scenes, ideas, names and places - sometimes even phrases to hint at canon universe. Don't restrict that of which you are guilty of. Don't pretend you have more rights than the original creator.

    Second, yes, by all means, if you wrote a fanfic, feel free to forbid the copying and plagiarism of your work - but only the things that are directly used and copied.

    Third - if you want to write a continuation of fanfiction, learn what the word continuation means. Write a derivative work of derivative work of a derivative work - but do not steal. Do not copy. Do not pretend you wrote something you didn't. Keep that in mind, and I don't think there's anything anyone can do about it - except to ban you from DLP, I guess.


    This is all my opinion, and as the current ruling is directly at odds with the Third point as written, I'd appreciate a clarification on the definition of continuation.

    As written, it follows that:
    but...
    and
    Is this true, in the end?

    The quoted discussion implies that the intent of the ruling is to forbid copying parts of the story, and then continuing from where it ended, not simply forbidding all continuations and derivative works.

    Does intent even cover me writing a spin off, on, (example here) Wand and Shield, starting at the current point in the story? As in, writing on Avengers with the addition of Harry and Peter Parker - only ever referring to events in the past, but essentially writing a new adventure, say fighting of another alien invasion?

    Would I get banned, or would the only consequence be that Roarian stopped speaking with me in good terms, because I didn't ask for his permission before throwing his version of Harry Potter at the aliens?

    How about including the actual definition of continuation in the ruling?
    Continuation as far the default definition goes, does not cover neither copying nor plagiarism - only the fact of a derivative work - which is either an oversight, or a policy I cannot support in good faith. I will abide by the rules, however.

    So, there won't be a Wand and Shield: Nauro's Edition. :p

    In short:
    Continuation is not copying by definition. Forbidding continuations is a bad ruling, in my personal, subjective opinion, while direct copying should be punished - and even then, within bounds of reason.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2015
  17. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2007
    Messages:
    6,216
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Blocksberg, Germany
    You people ...

    And here I thought I was too German and needed rules for every eventuality. Do you really want us to discuss what nuance works and what doesn't? Chances are, we just ban everything because that's easier.

    Or, we could leave it as is and Agree To Have Nice Things with y'all not being retarded and shooting a quick question if you want to borrow/use/fork something, and the problem never comes up in the first place. How about it?
     
  18. Jarik

    Jarik Chief Warlock

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2008
    Messages:
    1,447
    Location:
    Melbourne
    Lord Ravenclaw's post talked about a zero tolerance policy with a lifetime ban. A zero tolerance policy which, through the course of these two pages of discussion, people have interpreted differently.

    It seems like this is something where specifics need to be ironed out. Especially given that "promoting" a work that potentially infringes on these nuances also constitutes a ban, so it won't always be possible to err on the side of caution if you feel you may be in the grey zone.
     
  19. Jon

    Jon The Demon Mayor Admin DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    8,014
    Location:
    Australia
    Uhm. How the fuck is this hard to understand?

    Let's be clear. We only give a flying fuck about the people on this site and their rights. We're not going to go out of our way to stand up for people who don't belong to DLP.

    We don't care about them, we care about our members.

    This isn't about general cases.

    This is about protecting your right to have a say what happens with your work.

    If you, or anyone else on the site chooses to let someone have a crack at your work, either taking it wholesale, continuing, or copying, then that's your choice.

    But we're adamant that you get to make that choice.

    You want to rip someone's idea off? Go ahead. As long as they aren't part of this site we won't ban you. We sure as fuck won't be happy about it and we'll express our displeasure, but we're not going to outright ban you. To be clear, 'copying someone's concept' and 'copying their work' are too very different things. One is homage, the other is plagiarizing, by now you should know where we stand on that.

    We don't have an obligation to protect the interests of everyone on the internet.

    Just you guys.

    I-I mean! It's not like we like you or anything. We're just doing our job. Hmph, baka!

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Riley

    Riley Alchemist DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2007
    Messages:
    2,345
    Location:
    On The Eastern Seaboard, USA
    The sig Jon. It works perfectly....I hate you for that.
     
Loading...