Eh no, highly trained Aurors fear Voldemort and highly respect Dumbledore because Voldemort and Dumbledore are better than the Aurors. They have put in more hard work and learning than the Aurors have, maybe they have a better instinctual understanding of the material, but there is no inborn skill or power levels that set those two apart from the others, they are better because they worked harder.

And yes, anyone could reach their level, but they don't because those two are exceptional, they are the very best. Very few people are able or willing to put in the work that they did to reach that level.

 

I've bolded the two words which are basically antonyms. You're implying that anybody can do it, but not really anybody because only exceptional people can do it.

And also the thought that anybody with the right work ethic can achieve great power is complete bullshit. I've seen people with incredible work ethic go bankrupt because they were just born without this, that or whatever. Power isn't achieved solely by working hard (although that is indeed a large part of it) -- it's achieved by being the best and brightest motherfucker out there.

Not trying to bash you or anything, just putting that out there

 

The point I'm making is that anyone has the theoretical potential to be as good as Voldemort and Dumbledore, these two are just the exceptional ones who surpass everyone else. They were not born with some extra quality that makes them more powerful, they worked the hardest to gain that power. Those two are, to use your words, the best and brightest motherfuckers out there. But they weren't born that way, they achieved that level with their incredible work ethic.

 

Everyone has the theoretical potential to be a Dumbledore in the same way that everyone has the theoretical potential to be an Einstein.

Which is to say that they don't.

But I agree with Bill that this falling short isn't due to any mystical phenomenon. But then, I think Grimaud agrees with this too.

Everyone agrees here, just words are being argued over...

@ Samkar: see above.

"I disagree if it's just a matter of academic abilities then anybody with knowledge and effort could reach a level like Einstein."

Do you agree with this statement? If you don't, do you think that Einstein had some mystical physicsing ability that enabled his ability with physics, independent of his intelligence, hard work, insight, and knowledge? No? Then you can see how it is that you don't need inborn magical power to not have a society full of Dumbledores. After all, we don't have a society full of Einsteins.

 

You're confusing the word anyone with the word everyone.

 

I disagree with your connection that Einstein's contribution is really related to some process of long time work effort and high academic education. He was a genius but not in the way you seem to think. Do you know where Einstein worked when he wrote his thesis which was actually quite small page wise? He worked at the patent office in Bern then and not as some university scholar. Einstein thought outside the traditional box and had the interest to work on it as a hobby besides his real work. I would call this the factor of talent/intuition and skill. He was 26 in 1905 when he published his paper and one of his sayings were "Imagination is more important than knowledge".
I don't think he's a good example for your concept of knowledge and work ethic makes magical might.

But what is the intellectual contribution of Voldemort or Dumbledore which made them so powerful compared to the rest? Has Voldemort developed an unique way to throw more AKs per minute to keep others on distance or has Dumbledore developed some alchemic shield based on the 12 usages of dragon blood? There must be some factor-x involved which I think must be related to power ultimately. Maybe both could keep up personal wards through their power(factor-x) so they were almost unbeatable in a personal duel.

 

Y'know, what with Einstein working at a patent office, imagine if he hadn't thought of any of his shit, and just stole other people instead, whilst 'disposing' of the evidence.

Fuck, that's a scary thought.

 

Firstly, you do Einstein a great disservice. He had a vast amount of knowledge that was hard earned. There's no way he could have done what he did without it. Secondly, you mistake the nature of Einstein's genius somewhat. While he certainly was bold and creative, this is not the same kind of creativity as is involved in writing fiction. He had one bold idea and went through the chore of seeing it through to its logical conclusion. It was that process of deduction that is what made him brilliant, not the idea itself. He wasn't the first to have the idea, after all: the idea behind special relativity was anticipated by Henri Poincare by a number of years. But Einstein was the one who did the hard work, so he gets the credit.

But that history of science tangent is somewhat unrelated to the point. The comparison to Einstein is not to focus attention on the generation of new knowledge per se (though Dumbledore et al are certainly innovative) but rather on the mastery of their field that it evidences.

No single spell or item of magic but rather in their supreme skill which is a result of their knowledge and intellect, which I take to include the various intuitions they have built up over the years through internalisation of knowledge and long practice. Anyone can equal this level of knowledge, intellect, intuition etc. in the same way that anyone can equal Einstein (or any other high achieving genius in Muggle history, if the historical circumstances around Einstein worry you so) - they can't, but not due to any factors that go beyond the simple fact that some people are more talented than others, due to a combination of genetic, developmental and environmental factors.

 

Or, the premise of an awesome story set in an alternate gritty universe, where murderers prosper and you're only as good as your last lie.

SerialKiller!Einstein...

No, I don't think I could do it to such a great mind.

 

Well we're told in canon that Voldemort has pushed the boundaries of his style of magic further than any wizard before him, and we frequently see evidence of it. (Wormtail's silver hand, 7 horcuxes, independent flight).

We're told that Dumbledore has done the same and again see evidence of it, (his use of the patronus messenger system, his use of transfiguration when dueling).

These are all pretty blatant examples of their intellect being used and examples of them being powerful wizards, again, it's also obvious that this x-factor you're talking about is in fact their intelligence.

If you want to denigrate Dumbledore, then you could say he used the elder wand. That's his mystical power enhancer, but to do so is unfair, I think, because you're ignoring that he won it off Grindlewald using his own skill and wand.

However, you can't do that with Voldemort. The uniqueness of their situation is no more mystical than in the muggle world, they were just lucky enough to be born with/develop the three most important things in the wizard world: Intelligence, diligence and quick reflexes.

 

You almost definitely could. It'd be quite easy really. The scariness is all in the accent, and severe dyslexia :awesome

 

Well, how about SerialKiller!Oppenheimer? Working with Einstein, a mysterious, but very dangerous individual, on the Manhattan Projects.

 

Someone already came up with it. It's called the Mirror Universe in Star Trek.
*Now imagining Einstein with a badass goatee*

 

Sure your examples are a factor of their intelligence and skill but it's not a prove for power over other people. Unless of course you think Voldemort beat his opponents by conjuring smart replacement hands. Well, somebody could use that idea in a duel

I'm sure you don't think some neuro surgeon's extreme skill level would be a cause for individual might over others which comes through lethal power to be able to enforce their will.

I don't want to denigrate Dumbledore. I'm sure he is meant to be highly intelligent and skilled. But I also think he has this x-factor called power over others. Intelligence and Skill can't be enough. He also didn't need the elder wand to finish Grindelwald though we were never told how he managed that.

What do quick reflexes help if 10 people curse you unless of course these reflexes go so far beyond the norm that its an enhancement others can't do or it's a special talent. And then we're back to the x-factor/power argument.

 

It's not the fact that he conjured a hand. It's the fact that he's push the boundaries of magic. He can do thing with a wand that no one ever thought of doing not because he is inherently more 'powerful' but because he has work and dedicated his life to learning everything he can about magic.

Skill and intelligence aren't enough? Lets go through our history.

Hitler was highly intelligent and a skill orator. He managed through the use of propaganda and various other methods to achieve his goal. He was one of the most powerful man on the planet during his time. I'm quite sure Hitler doesn't have a X-factor that makes him more powerful than anyone else. He just had that drive to achieve his goal.

Napoleon is another one that come to mind. With a small army of french soldiers, he defeated an army that was probably four time his own. Through skill and intelligence, he outsmart his opponents and came back to claim the title of Emperor. He then conquered countries until he was outsmart himself. Again, skill+intelligence+dedication = win.

You're taking one word out of context. But I'll stick with you again with examples from our own history. I'm quite sure that if you were to fight against one of the UFC Champion (lets say Bone Jones!) you would be quite outclass. He would have far better reflex than you and would be able to beat you soundly. Why? Because he trains for that kind of situation 6h/day everyday.

Back to HP, Voldemort has done the same fucking thing. He left Britain for years and came back changed. He has train. He has duel, blackmail and studied atrocious magic that no one had dare push as much as he did. Average wizard would be outclass by Voldemort.

Back to reality, if there was 5-6 of you against Bone Jones. I'm quite sure you would still be beaten quick easily. Instead of taking you all at the same time, he would make sure to position himself so that each of you would be a nuisance to your partners (and I'm talking from experience since I've been doing martial arts for 10 years). There are ways to face multiple opponents. You simply have to know them or develop them.

Back to HP. Voldemort is facing 5-6 opponents? Where's the problem? He knows magic these simpletons didn't even think exist. He doesn't have the reflex of Spider man or w/e. He has such a mastery of magic that the mere thought of a spell unleash it. He can read your intention simply looking into your eyes. Of course he's going to win. Because he has skill, intelligence and dedication.

 

Bitches, this is the Pet Peeves thread, not the "Dumbledore/Voldemort are powerful only because they're magical Einsteins" thread. :facepalm

 

Yeah, I see what you're saying, but I do think Voldemort beat his opponents by knowing more dark magic than them, and inventing some of his own, and by having 7 horcruxes so that he could survive a killing curse and come back from it and so on and so forth.

I do, actually, if only minimally. I would like to point out though that I can guarantee I'd feel quite differently if neurosurgery could be performed at a distance and was the primary knowledge base behind the educational/law/governmental systems, just sayin'.

(And, to answer your example: I would fear for my well being slightly more in a knife fight with a Neurosurgeon than with a regular chump like myself. As a medic, I'm regularly tutored by surgeons and get lectures from them and I'm awed by their recollection and delicacy regarding human anatomy. Never mind the surgeon who made a joke about how to commit a perfect murder while operating on a patient. Uncomfortable.
But, he made his point well so I do think that his extreme skill level gives him a 'cause for individual might over others which comes through lethal power', if only a little.)

I can't see why you think intelligence and skill can't be enough to have power or superiority over others? It's generally the case in the real world and in the magical world we really just see this more directly. I could see your point if you were meaning some other trait like ambition or determination, but I don't think you mean some quality like that, do you?

Snape, biased as he is, opens his speech on potions stating how much more powerful they are than wand magic. However, as it's more removed from the caster, I don't think you'd argue that the strength of a potion has some innate base value determined by the potency of the wizard. Rather, it's a result of his ability with potions, ability that is a sum of intelligence and experience (amongst other things).

Why is it so different with wand magic? We never see an example of using magic fatiguing a wizard in canon - physically and emotionally, yes, but they're the normal effects of being in an intense fight - there's no mention of depleted power reserves or anything of that nature. If we're to assume that it doesn't use up anything, that every wizard has enough fuel to power any spell as many times as they'd like (before mental fatigue sets in, again tied to concentration/diligence) why would your power x-factor matter? It wouldn't effect their potency, or their stamina.

So, following that argument on, if it's not the wizard then maybe it's the wand. We seem to have some basis there what with the canon wand lore, and specifically the Elder wand. However, Voldemort and Harry, the only wizards we know of with phoenix wands (ignoring Pottermore which states dragon heartstring wands are 'stronger' somehow) are not equal strength, at all. If it was really the wand that was the major determining factor we'd be expecting Harry to be blowing wizards down left right and centre by the halfway point of his first year (their experience, their knowledge and intellect counting for little against the mighty x-factor of his wand).

I know that I've taken it to an extreme there, but you get my point, I'm sure.

No, thinking about it I can kinda see what makes you crave this x-factor. Dumbledore and Voldemort breeze into fights and seem to kick arse so effortlessly and carelessly, like it doesn't exert them at all. The simple answer to this though is experience and reputation. They've been there before many, many times and the people they're fighting know whom they're fighting against. If you going into a fight expecting to lose then you're probably going to lose.

Hmm, well off the top of my head. Ten people go to curse you, you apparate quickly enough. Reflex win. Remember of course that magic is, of course, a learned reflex. A new wizard, just like a new driver, is going to be going through all the checks in his head. An experienced wizard is not, he's just going to apparate/shield/counter-curse. The quicker he's able to react, the quicker he can help himself.

EDIT: My bitchin' reply ninja'd by basilisk and explained far better, never mind. But Jormungandr's quite right so I'll drop this and just say personal pet peeve: Stories where for no reason a character can achieve unmatched power without challenge or competition or purpose, just because.

 

It would appear Jorm, that your advice was looked at, considered, and then thrown the fuck out.

Well played good sir. Well. Played.

 

It really wasn't. I'm not the fastest typer in the world and I'd already started before either Jorm or Basilisk posted. I edited it to add in a pet peeve.