Alright, I just read through all the talk here. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought the whole winter lady!Molly thing was quite awful. It makes no sense with what we've been told earlier, and the position of Knight is to be the mortal champion. It's probably the worst plot idea since giving Harry a daughter. I get the whole Halloween thing, since half the story was about that and that it's the night that immortals are made and unmade, but it's still dumb. Everyone knows that Molly, being Molly, is going to try to change everything now.

The stuff with Mac really is stupid. If he ends up being some form of Dionysus, I'll rage. It was much better when he was just a mundane guy, perhaps with a bit of inside know-how. Butcher seems intent to make every single last thing in the Dresdenverse some ultimate purpose, other than just leaving some things simply be.

I pictured the Cat Sith fight like the scene from Monty Python with the Holy Handgrenade and the rabbit flying around and limbs falling off. But yeah, after that was pretty lame. When he couldn't summon the Cat, it was obvious something was wrong. How it actually turned out was just dumb, and I'm still unsure on exactly what Nemesis is. It's referred to as a parasite, but then so is the thing in Harry's head, which I agree with people in thinking is Lash. It's too confusing. I do think that Nemesis isn't the big bad, he's just clearing the way. Breach the outer walls to let the big bad in, since the world as it currently is can't handle him.

Starborn. Fuck, I forgot to mention this in my first post. This better not be some stupid contrived destined-from-birth bullshit that 98% of all recent video games and books seem to be pulling. Half the appeal of this series is that Dresden is just a normal wizard who's had to make do in some tough situations, make tough decisions, and overcome. Really, if he's some destined asshole who's sole purpose in being born is to save the world, then fuck that.

Also, the whole end of the world thing in this, it's kind of played out, especially since it turns out the whole purpose in the end wasn't even to end the world (presumably be releasing all the prisoners, which I guess everyone can kind of figure out is what the apocalyptic trilogy will involve) and just to have Maeve pull a fast one on her mother. Mab was a complete badass in this story though, and every scene involving her was good. And the scene with the Mothers was excellent as well, and I wouldn't be surprised if they were just two halfs of the same being. Also, are the Queens literally their daughters? I don't think so, since it was stated that mantles are just masks and titles, and can be changed.

I do also agree that pretty much everything in this story was too goddamn convenient. I don't care about Murphy at all, and even less about toot and lacuna, and even less about Sarissa. It's too convenient that Murphy shows up at all, since the story could have been done without her. Same with the hunt, but that's probably something to do with Odin and whatever. And Marcone's and Lara's ritual raids were written off with just a single line, and that doesn't settle well with me. Too many things were written off as afterthoughts.

The Nemesis thing reminds me of when we were introduced to the Horcruxes in HP6, and then all of a sudden it's made known that Tom RIddle's diary is one, then all of a sudden, everything from the past Dresden books is explained with it.

Oh yeah, and I forgot that apparently the real Merlin discovered America before Columbus. And anyone get the feeling that there's a future version of Dresden running around? Or perhaps events have been orchestrated by a past version of a future Dresden. The basis for time travel was laid out early in the story, and then never used. Heck, I could even see Dresden becoming Rashid, or perhaps they're the same person in different times.

Still, loads better than the abomination called Ghost Story.

 

That's the way magic works in the Dresdenverse. It doesn't really matter what you were thinking at the time. If you kill someone with magic you're still responsible for their death. It's not a nice fact, but the world isn't a nice place. Fuck that good intentions bullshit. You kill someone, you've fucking killed them. That you did it in cold blood or because they were trying to kill you doesn't make a difference; you still killed them.

 

From what we know a starborn is someone who can fight the Outsiders on even terms, and Elaine is also one. It makes sense to me that Margaret planned for her son to be born with this power.

Poor Columbus. These days it seems that everyone discovered America before him.

Also, about the Demonreach. We still don't know too much about its prisoners. What I wonder is if there are any Outsiders there. Because if not, then I think that we will see Harry releasing all prisoners to fight them off in the Trilogy. I mean, they are evil, sure, but I think they would like to have the world for themselves instead of seeing it destroyed by some second-rated monsters from beyond.

In other words I think that the Demonreach is a Chekhov's gun that will be fired by Harry to save the world.

And now that I think more about it, it will probably happen a little earlier - in the last Files book. And the Trilogy will be about the world saved from the Outsiders, but still pretty much damned by beings that survived the battle.

 

Been thinking about Elaine, and wondering if she's been Nemesized.

One the one hand, she spent an awful lot of time with Aurora.

On the other, she helped Harry in Summer Knight, against Aurora's plans.

 

Hmm.

You have to wonder how far in advance Butcher planned this whole Nemesis-plot.

Did he write Storm Front and Fool Moon with it in mind, or did he fit aspects of those books to the overall plot we're seeing now?

I'm with Taure on the Elaine wondering. I think she may be under the blight, but we'll see.

Given what we now know, the entire series is open to reinterpretation. I, for one, do not see this as a bad thing. Starting my re-read next week.

Edit: Although perhaps being 'starborn' offers Elaine some sort of protection, even immunity, from Nemesis' touch.

 

As far as Merlin discovering America before Columbus I actually don't think he went there so much as he was pointed in that direction.

Bob's discussion with Harry about the wards on the island basically being compared to car technology and Dresden as much as using a push-car technology versus the internal combustion engine makes me think that Rashid, or some version of him, is the cause of it.

The idea mulling around in my head has been that Rashid actually created the Jail version of Demonreach. I think he subverted an Intellectus or somehow forced the island into awareness to create the jail and led Merlin there in some way. Rashid seems to be the only one in current Dresdenverse who could explain the magic being used on Demonreach since not even Bob can.

Merlin just doesn't seem to be the answer to me for the spells all over the island. At least not just Merlin. I get his genius in Dresden Files exceeds even most lore about Merlin but that advanced of magic from the past? Just doesn't compute for me. Plus the way Bob worded his comparison when speaking to Dresden made it seem too much like it had to be from the future. Or some parallel version of the world that progressed more rapidly. Which makes me think Rashid had a hand in it.

 

Given the time travel involved, it's entirely possible Merlin discovered America both before and after Columbus. At the same time. XD

Speaking of, it's also entirely possible that one or more of the five times Merlin created Demonreach hasn't happened yet. If some power could prevent him from ever creating Demonreach in the first place in the future, that could be apocalypsey.

Re: the complexity of the magic - I thought it was explained as being something analogous to a fractal. It's enormously complex now, but originally it wasn't. Merlin triggered the magic with something simple, and over the years it grew naturally into this enormously powerful and complex thing.

 

There are some that think the Merlin could have been Dresden travelling back in time (personally I hope that's not the case.)

There was also the conversation between Dresden and Odin about time travel, about how paradoxes weren't the worry, but rather, split universes were. It is possible that the Outsiders came from another universe that was created due to some actions caused by Harry breaking the law of time travelling.

All comes down to how JB chooses to manage it in his future books.

 

Well, we don't know how that works exactly or what outsiders are capable of. Maybe all walkers have the ability to enter the bodies of other beings for example, and hide in them. One of their major powers seems to be psychic assault for example.

So maybe it might be possible for a walker to basically transfer their mind into some sidhe soldier in the field, and then hide inside that soldier post-fight when said soldier returns home. And then basically just burst out from that soldier alien-style and run amock.

Who says they have to do that? For all we know, when a mortal summons an outsider, it creates somekind of shortcut that allows an outsider to bypass the guarded gates entirely and basically teleport from outside straight to earth and avoid the Gatekeeper and the winter armies entirely. It might be that the outsiders only have to worry about the gate when they try to invade without the help of a mortal wizard. This weakness would also explain why the council has a law against summoning outsiders and is so opposed to it. Its because summoning outsiders is a way for the critters to basically cheat and just bypass Mabs forces alltogether.

Why not? Its no like magic users are completely uncommon. Those three porn star sorceresses were able to summon a powerfull walker for example, and they were far from top-level wizards. I could well see a situation where a couple of outsiders manage to sneak past the gatekeeper and enter the real world, and then find wizards and either corrupt them or just use plain violence/torture/blackmail and basically force them into summoning more outsiders. This is especially true given that outsiders are presumably immortal, so they have the time to be patient and build their numbers slowly. For all we know, some outsiders in the world today might have been summoned centuries ago, and have just been waiting for the right time to strike.

We should also remember that apparently this attack on Demonreach was a major plan, and had it been successfull it would have dealt a huge blow both to earth and to Mab, so it does not seem unreasonable to assume that the outsiders would have gathered as many of their forces for this assault as possible. For all we know, nearly every outsider that had ever managed to get summoned/sneak past the gates took part, in which case the failure here would have been a massive loss for the bad guys.

I would really like for Lash to come back. I liked that character. However what I dont understand is why in all the world would Lash make a bargain with Demonreach (and presumably Mab too, though that was not confirmed) not to tell Harry about her existence. I mean if it is Lash, would she not WANT Harry to know that she is not dead. Especially since the whole bursting from Harrys head suggests that she is in need of assistance of some sort.

If the Parasite truly is Lash, any ideas why she would not want Harry to know who she is? Seems to me that rather than making a bargain with Demonreach to keep quiet, she would make a bargain where Demonreach would be forced to tell Harry that she is still there, and also convey instructions on how to fix things so that Harrys head won't explode (which could kill them both).

Sorry, but thats how it is. And this is not new, if you reread White Night, you will see Lash confirm that Harry is special. For what its worth however, it seems that it just means that Harry has some unique power over outsiders. It does not mean that he is destined to defeat them. Infact the way the outsiders wanted to recruit him here suggests that his unique ability might well be used to utterly screw the good guys too.

Maybe Dresdens outsider-power could be used to summon outsiders in far greater quantities than normal for example, or perhaps summon outsiders so powerfull that they are beyond the reach of normal wizads. Harry is also not unique, we have WOJ that states that anyone born under cimilar circumstances would have the same kind of power. Elaine for example has it too, and I would not be surprised if the Gatekeeper has it too. Heck, given the size of the world, there are probably many dozens of them, some made by design such as Harry and some just by accident.

Truthfully, I think Harrys ability to use soulfire thanks to Uriel is actually considerably more unique and rare than this "starborn" thing. Given that Uriel could only give Harry the ability due to Lucifer interfering directly, it would not surprise me if Harry is the only wizards in the world with soulfire-ability. The starborn thing would be very common in comparison then.

Is this a surprise? I mean we already know that using NN, its possible to go from US to england and back via a relatively short walk. That means that while vanilla mortals had to endure a very difficult boat trip over the ocean, a wizards could basically go to america in the morning, and return to europe in the afternoon. I strongly suspect that it was not just Merlin, but that LOTS of wizads were running around in america a LONG time befre Columbus.

 

Norwegian vikings discovered America before Columbus. Just sayin'.
Kinda would make sense to put the prison a whole frickin' continent away.

 

My largest question is who filled the prison? Merlin built it, but nothing was said about who filled it. And as the weakest things in there, the skin walkers are a handful for even senior council members, who the hell captured the high security guys?

And on that note the bob movie thing was way to cheesy, might have been better to just have Demonreach send thoughts and images into Harry’s head.

 

Off the top of my head:

1) She needs him unaware in order to regenerate properly
2) She has some greater design and needs him unaware to achieve it
3) She made a deal with someone else and one of the terms is to actively conceal herself
4) If Dresden doesn't know she exists, no one else does, thus she's safe from retaliation from Lasciel/the Denarians

I could probably come up with a few more if I wanted to put some time into it. There's just not enough information to tell for sure. All we know for absolute certain is that Lash was somewhere in Ghost Story, and by process of elimination is most likely the Parasite.

 

That may in fact be the way it works, but it isn't logical. Is magic a sentient entity that follows you around and fucks with you whenever you do something "bad"? What if you killed somebody by accident but didn't even see it happen? Does it still corrupt you? What if there's more than one degree of separation between you casting the magic and somebody's death? Say you create a gust of wind (for some random purpose) that stirs a branch loose from a tree, which falls on somebody and kills them. Does that still corrupt you? You weren't using your magic for any offensive purpose (let alone murder) and your magic presumably didn't even come into contact with the victim. Why on earth would there be any backlash?

Sure, there can be answers to all those questions. But Occam's Razor says that's a bad way of doing things. It almost certainly requires some sentient judgment which doesn't take mitigating factors into account, which is two strikes against plausibility.

 

I always called it as the conscious act of either recklessness or murderous intent in casting magic added an addictive taint to further reckless or aggressive uses. The council are just hard nosed and paranoid of warlocks so go to a further extent. IIRC doesen't Dresden blast to kill or at least was ambivalent until it reverted to human shape? If so thats a clearly broken first law, not that it matters when he is Mabs hit-man whose job is now to kill those who cross Winter.

 

What he did was almost certainly a violation of a plain reading of the First Law. That said, I'd argue against the consistency of any system of magic that also corrupted somebody who did what Dresden did.

 

Well, I've just figured out how to completely cripple the white council and wizards in general against Supernatural Powers.

Simple, make it so that you can't attack/kill the supernatural power without attacking/killing another human in some other fashion. Hell, do it in secret and send a buttload of fodder off to be killed by a really powerful wizard.

Rashid kills a bunch of Vampire Fodder that are secretly linked to a bunch of humans. When they die, so do the humans. The humans all die too! Congrats, Rashid is now a Twisted And Evil Warlock, because intentions barely matter at all, degrees of separation matter little, only the result really matters.

Rinse. Repeat as often as needed, just with different methods.

You've now found a way to turn any Good And Powerful Wizard into an Evil Warlock hell-bent on destruction and mayhem and murder!


...

Yeah.

Fuck that noise.

Hey, I'm in the middle of battle using scary battle magic. One of my compatriots does something completely off the wall and ends up being killed by my magic. WHOOPS, LOOKS LIKE I'M EVUL NOW. INTENTIONS DON'T MATTER, ONLY THE RESULTS.

One of my clients asks me to track someone for them so they can find them, so I do. Then I tell them where they are. That client goes there and gets killed.

WHOOPS, LOOKS LIKE I'M EVIL NOW. INTENTIONS DON'T MATTER, ONLY THE RESULT.

That's stupid bullshit. On every single level. Anyone who argues for it looks like an idiot. Including Jim Himself.

Also, this is pacifistic bullshit. I have taken life in self defense. I am not the same as a murderer. A person who takes a life in self defense does not have the same moral debt as a person who takes a life just for shits and giggles. They're not even close, they're not even in the same fucking ballpark. They're not in the same damned ZIP CODE. To steal all value and validity from the sovereign right to defend one's Life is retarded on just about every moral level I can possibly think of.

If this is the argument that Jim is making with his magic system then I have just lost a massive amount of respect for this entire series and Jim Himself. Fuck. No.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about Butcher's personal thoughts on the First Law; he's always been terribly inconsistent with his descriptions of anything regarding magic.

For example: In Death Masks, the plague curse doesn't technically break the First Law because the diseases were what actually killed.

 

That and Dresden's an unreliable narrator in that he himself piles guilt over his actions when they don't lead to a perfect result, continually second guessing himself. Also wouldn't his mantra of there being several philosophies of magic apply? The truth is probably that wizards just have a clue of how magic definitively operates, and that reckless, or malicious practitioners are a magnet for even greater trouble, seeing as how power-ups at the cost of the soul/free will seem fairly available. The council just acts proactively in stopping chaos before it leads to death and destruction.

Additionally, couldn't warlocks be overstated due to dogma/Dresdens many warnings with the DoD? Wizards have been shown to use deceit in their authoring Dracula and instigating Halloween, the 'warlock myth' could fit within the same category. Otherwise Ebenezers character does not make sense.

 

I know it's just Harry saying it, but I doubt he could be that far off in his understanding of a law that he was nearly executed for breaking.

My main problem isn't this in particular, but rather that you can find discrepancies like this for just about everything Jim has ever said about his magic system (i.e. its not an isolated incident).