I don't think it's about putting the Fallen in there, so much as it is about putting the coins in there. It's a pretty inaccessible location, isn't it? Plus with the coins in the prison Demonreach the entity could act against anyone trying to retrieve them. That prevents them from influencing anyone else.

Though admittedly there may be more required to the imprisonment of the coins than simple defenses, which is why they haven't simply been anchored to the bottom of the Pacific or something.

 

Still makes little sense. Choice is such a huge part of the series. You can't be turned into a vampire of the red or white court without an active choice. The Black Court are already dead, so choice no longer counts.
Same thing with the Denarians. You have to take up the coin. Which makes the thing with the mantles just assaulting someone and stripping the soul from them kinda not make sense.

It's either kind of contradictory writing, or there's some kind of logic there we just haven't seen yet.

 

I'm pretty sure that Jim didn't specified if it was male or female, but I can't find exact quote.

If we are to believe Dresden, it only happened because they were too small problem for him. And what Mab said to Demonreach additionally suggests that she asked it to not attack Ladies (probably as long as they are not a real danger to the prison) so she could deal with her daughter herself.

 

You can absolutely be turned to the Red and White Courts without a choice--all that's required is that you drink someone's blood in the former case and have sex in the latter. Neither needs to be done willingly; most reds are transformed when they're overwhelmed by blood lust, for example, and being raped or drugged into having sex both count for the White's.

Similarly, Denarians can have zero choice involved. What's required is you touch the coin; it can be tossed at you, for example, and suddenly you have a demon on your mind.

Basically: Humans have free will and choices. None of which means, in and of themselves, that anyone cares. Faeries, vampires, Fomor, and Warlocks can happily and easily take away your free will and make you their mind puppets. Any number of creatures can take away your right to choose.

tl;dr: Life sucks, get a helmet.

 

I've just got to point out that it's heavily implied Demonreach could have (probably fairly easily) swatted the Ladies aside and been done with it, but chose not to. For proof, see when Mab is summoned. She looks at Demonreach and says something along the lines of "Your forbearance in this matter is noted, thank you".

There's any number of possible reasons, but the two that stand out to me are:
1) Fear of collateral damage, especially with Dresden in the immediate area
2) Mab knew roughly what was going to happen and asked/bargained with it to give her a chance to resolve it

 

Just because Merlin build Demonreach doesn´t mean the he imprisoned everything in there personally.. it could also be that he stumbled across another, less secure prison and simply choose to move them away.

And am I the only one who thinks the Mac could be Merlin in some form?

 

Dear god, with how fucked up our our wireless connection was, I was about to froth at the mouth in rage, all because I didn't have a fucking .epub reader.

Finally found it and was it awesome.

One question though, how was Karin's frozen handcuffs right before she shot Maeve broken? I mean did she manage it or was Mab the one who did it?

 

I hope not. As much as I like Mac, he is not cool enough to be Merlin.

What I suspect is that he was working with the Outsiders in his past and then betrayed them. The way the Gatebreaker talked to him sounded like it was personal between them.

 

A quote from SK, when Lily comes to visit Dresden at the end:
I lifted my eyebrows and said, "Are you okay?"
She frowned. "I'm not sure. It's a lot to think about. And it's the first time this kind of power has fallen to a mortal."
"You mean you're not, uh. You haven't?"
"Chosen?" Lily asked. She shook her head. "It's just me. I don't know what I'm going to do, but Titania said she'd teach me."

And I'd also like to draw you're attention to the fact that Harry confessed to Fix about his daughter. Which means Titania will probably hear about it too. And since faeries are all about balance and equal exchange, I'm pretty sure who's going to be the next Summer Lady.

 

I doubt that. Harry was working as Winter Emissary back then. Mab's daughter becoming a new Summer Lady should balance this wrongdoing already. And Titania doesn't seem like a person who would blame a child for her father's faults.

That said, it very possible that Fix himself will use this knowledge to get revenge on Harry for what happened to Lily.

 

Mhm. I remember reading something by Jim that said Lily gradually had her Choice made for her, as she went on being the Summer Lady. I can't find it now though. Anyone else remember it?

 

Personally I would say the choices here are basically the person which receives the mantle living on(. She could have chosen to kill herself instead) and allowing the mantle to decide things for her. Sure not much of a choice but free will doesn't mean you have good choices or even foreknowledge it being a choice just that they exist. It is probably not absolute or instaneous considering what Uriel says(which I guess is just another reason for it being entirely possible, and likely, for both Molly and Dresden to remain mostly as they are).

This is what I thought when the Denarians first came up and it fits perfectly both with how important having a soul/free will is on Dresdenverse and with all events. I am not sure where all the discussion about it comes from since it seems rather simple to me.

 

If you dont have a soul upon recieving the mantle, then suddenly killing yourself would not suddenly regain you a soul. Also doesent the mantle make you immortal outside of specific scenarios such as halloween or the stone table? So you may not be able to kill yourself in the first place.

 

The 'choice' that anyone with a mantle receives is the choice to use the power, not the choice to have it in the first place - exactly like the Denarian coins. Touching the coin, whether you know what it is or not, grants you a touch of the power of the Fallen - it is your choice to 'take up' the coin and embrace the power fully (sacrificing your soul and a healthy chunk of your free will in the process).

Likewise, with the mantles, as we saw with Harry when he denied 'Winter's Law' - the Power of the Mantle can abandon you. Now, as with most supernatural bargains, especially when the Sidhe are involved, it may not feel like a choice - it fact, it may feel like you've been forced into something, between a rock and a hard place - but the choice to use and embrace the power or not is still there.

One could assume that Lily was shown that the consequences of not using the Summer Lady's Mantle would be severe, just as Maeve and Mab implied with the Winter Lady's Mantle - the bearer can actively choose to not use the power, but for anyone with a conscience or a sense of duty, the choice doesn't feel like one, because the consequences of not using the power, not fulfilling their duties, could be, as far as we now know, universal destruction.

That's what JB meant when he said the Choice was made for Lily - she would have been shown the consequences of not using her power, and for someone and sweet and good-natured and, yes, naive as Lily, it functionally wouldn't have been much of a choice. But it was technically a choice.

Being subsumed by the Mantles - using the power, embracing the imposed nature they bring with them - that is what the danger is for Harry and Molly now. As with Lash, using the power will be tempting, and it's a given that Mab will manufacture moments and situations where both of them feel as though they have no choice but to use the powers they've been given to solve the problems they are presented with. But also as with Lash, using the power will cause slow but sure corruption.

So, the 'choice' they each have will be to give up the power - power that cannot be claimed by anyone else while they live, power essential to the very survival of the universe - or to embrace it and become the forces of nature they must be to preserve the continued existence of everything.

Not much of a choice, but technically a choice nonetheless.

 

I think at the point where "if you don't do this, the planet is supernaturaly fucked" comes into play is when the line for Free Will is crossed. Kinda like how a Fallen Angel is so aware of human thought and so able to understand and predict humans, that they can mess with a person's Free Will with 7 words.

Otherwise, why have the distinction wherein something that a supernatural being says can curtail free will, when a super-catastrophic supernatural threat wouldn't count.

i.e. If you don't draw the line at "rocks fall, Earth dies," why the hell should you draw the line at "Fallen Angel manipulating a human"?

 

Note the key word in your own response - 'Manipulating.'

There's a slight difference between actively fucking with someone's head and simply showing them a force of nature in action.

As I live in the mountains, I'll put it this way: there's a difference between someone telling me to go out in a blizzard that I die in - that they knew I would die in! - and my buddy deciding on his own to go out looking for me and getting caught in that same blizzard. I was manipulated into a bad choice that I otherwise might not have made. My friend made the decision based on his own conscience. It's a fine line, but Uriel and Harry had the same argument at the end of Ghost Story.

 

Right. And I think that line shouldn't be.

 

... which puts you in the same camp as Dresden himself.

Ultimately, humans - mortals - have free will and choice. 'Higher' beings do not, (or have less).

The line, as we covered, is very fine, but the supernaturals are very good at blurring that line, or choosing to deal with mortals who will forego their choice, or who will never even realise they have made one.

Harry - and you, and I - hate the rule. We hate where the line was drawn. The reason why it was drawn in the first place must be that someone - probably on the order of a god, or God, or Creator, or whatever - drew the line, believing that it was the only way to strike the balance between mortal free will and supernatural power. It sucks, it seems arbitrary, and it often gets twisted and distorted.
Unfortunately, I've only got the same answer Uriel gave Harry - those are the rules. Can't do much about it.

 

Is it WoJ that the fae don't have souls or is only said in the books? We know only what Harry knows, and his information isn't always reliable. We know the fae have to follow a set of rules, but how do we know that they don't have free will, at least the ones who used to be mortal. We all follow rules and laws to some extent. We can choose to break them, but we know there will be consequences. The same might apply to the fae, only the consequences are harsher.​

On another note, did anyone find the conversation between Harry and the Gatekeeper strange. The mention of similar scars around the eye, followed by the Gatekeeper's saying "I have been precisely where you are. Precisely." I found the use of the word precisely along with the mention of the scars might lend credence to the whole 'the Gatekeeper is really Harry from the future' theory, much as I disklike it. I could be reading too deep into it.​

 

You don't need to have it stated outright (which it is) to know they don't have free will. Faeries cannot lie. Therefore they cannot choose to lie. Therefore they cannot have free will.

Simple logic.

Also, all Sidhe used to be mortal. As far as I can tell every single Sidhe we've seen (except, possibly, Mother Winter) has been a Changeling at some point.