Because to take the Coin off a Denarian they have to either kill the guy or have them give it up. The Knights don't appear to go after non-Denarians either, given that they haven't gone full dark side at that point.

Maybe because he gave the Coin up in a similar way to Sanya. Perhaps the act of giving up the Coin is more symbolic and metaphysical than not, so that when you drop it you're effectively severing any ties the Fallen has to you. That would very likely mean there's no thaumaturgic connection to take advantage of to summon it to you.

This sounds reasonable to me, since otherwise there's no connection between human and coin that could (given the magic system) be used.

 

One thing I've never understood is why giving up the coin means also giving up magic. It just seems like a contrived way of not letting Harry easily solve this problem. As far as we know, normal humans just need to resign from the power that the coin gives them and not something that is an essential part of their very being like magic is to wizards.

 

That makes very little sense to me, Im not saying your wrong but if Heaven can spare an Archangel to hide a room in Michaels linen closet I have a bit of a hard time believing that they cant do the same thing to where ever the Church shoves the coins or at bare minimum show the Church how to do it.

 

Because that would interfere with free will and all that. Choosing good when it's literally impossible to choose evil doesn't mean anything, and that's kinda what Uriel and Co. are all about.

 

This, and you've got to remember that the Archangels aren't there to counter the Denarians. They're around to counter the unbound Fallen that feel the need to interfere with the world. The Denarians are countered by the Swords, which is why Uriel only got involved when Lucifer and, later, Lasciel got involved without the intermediary of a human host.

 

Ehh I guess, Im perfectly willing to change my mind on this but Im going to wait until I see something specific from Jim.

 

Seems to me that the coin is summoned by the shadow.

We already know that things that are similar or linked in dresdenverse have a connection. That is why for example a piece of a persons hair can be used to track said person down (a link between the hair and the head where the hair grows). However if a person shaves himself bald, the hair can no longer be used to track him since the connection is broken. This actually happened in one of the books (Harry cuts some hair from a badguy, who then is let go and shaves himself bald to prevent Harry using the hair against him). Blood works through the same process, two similar things having a connection.

Now a shadow implanted in the head of a human is obviously extremely similar (virtually identical) to the actual fallen in the coin, since it is basically a photocopy of the fallen. I would say that if a piece of hair from a person creates a link to said person simply due to the similarity to all the other hairs on said person, then surely having an utterly identical copy in someones head also creates a link.

So its not that everyone can summon a coin, its that you have a situation where you have two identical entities in existence (actual fallen in the coin, and its copy the shadow of a fallen), and this similarity works just like the thing with the hair worked. There is a thaumaturgic link between the shadow and the fallen, and it is THIS link that can be used to summon the coin.

That is why Michael believed that Harry giving up the coin did not mean much, because he believed that the shadow of Lasciel was still in Harrys head, and the thaumaturgic link between the shadow and the coin would allow Harry to summon the coin to himself at anytime.

However, we know that if a person truly and honestly takes up a coin with the intention of using it, then the implanted shadow is absorbed back into the coin. Lash herself stated many times that this would happen, and Harry infact used this fact against her once by pointing out that Lash, who had changed and grown would "die" if Harry were to take up the coin.

We also know of two people who have used a coin fully and given it up (Sanya and Cassius), and neither had a shadow. This must then mean that if you fully accept the coin, and THEN give it up, there is no shadow left inside your mind. The shadow only appears if you touch the coin and then refuse to fully accept the coin, which is what happened with Harry.

That is why Cassius had to go after Lasciels coin. He did not have a shadow of his own fallen inside him anymore, and without a shadow there was no thaumaturgic connection to the actual coin which would make summoning said coin possible.

I would assume that Harry cannot summon Lasciels coin either. Even if Lash is still alive and in his head (the parasite for example), then it is likely that she has changed to the point where the thaumaturgic connection between her and the original fallen Lasciel has grown incredibly weak or even broken completely.

And ofcourse someone like Nicodemus could never summon any of the coins, since the only fallen he is connected to is Anduriel. Without a shadow of Lasciel to create a thaumaturgic link, there is no way for him to summon Lasciels coin, or any of the others.

Thats my take on this.

 

I think that this is explained in the books but I am not so sure and don´t have the earlier ones here.
If I remember right it was something about not accepting that the coins are fully evil and what he thinks about what magic is.

 

I reckon it's because it's a symbolic gesture. What the Fallen offers is power, so to get rid of it entirely you've got to give up the want for power. In Sanya's case it was to just drop the coin entirely, because he had no other power. Harry, however, has power. Lots of it. So he would have to give that up entirely in order to be free of the Fallen.

 

About why Cassius didn't summon the coin. Well, he had no shadow, did he? He had the full angel in his head, surrendered the coin of his own free will. No shadow, no angel.

 

It was totally contrived, but it wasn't a lucky chance. You've forgotten that Harry has crashed the Erlking's party twice now, and the Erlking all but said that he'd get Harry back for it. The Hunt came, for Harry, because Harry had insulted the Erlking twice. It was even specifically noted that it was coming for Harry. He knew that it was his ass they were after. If I'm surprised at anything, it's that the Erlking was willing to play the gambit. It would have been more his style to want to drink Harry's blood and make haggis with his entrails.

Honestly, I'm not a fan of the portrayals of Winter as being sympathetic. I like my Fae strange, insane, and warring with each other over the fine points of amorality versus clownshit evil. While it's nice to get exposition, I'm not totally cool with the portrayal of Winter being the Getting Shit Done Court, while Summer just Watches the Watchers. Because honestly, this is like the second time Summer dickery has nearly caused the entire universe to explode, and while it's not like Winter wasn't involved, it kind of irritates me that Winter has apparently been doing all the work, while Summer just sits around being the Condescending Space Elves of the modern fantasy setting.

Don't get me wrong, Titania threatening to eat someone's heart was amazing. We need more reminders that Summer is not nice, or sane, or concerned with morals or mortals in general. But making out Winter to be, in the grand scheme of things, a court of self-sacrificing Batman expies kind of irritates me. Mab is the Queen of Motherfucking Air and Goddamn Darkness. There needs to be more evil shit going on in her neighborhood. Just because you were once mortal, doesn't mean you weren't evil as fuck back then, too. For all we know, Mab used to be that one noble from the dark ages who bathed in the blood of younger women to try and remain youthful. And we didn't get to see one small child served with an apple in their mouths at Harry's birthday party. Did the Grimm Fairy Tales take the day off when nobody was watching, or what?

"The svartalves are legendary for being completely and utterly neutral, and for being the professionals your professionals could professional like."

fast forward~

"Mab, Queen of one of the Fairy courts, is great friends of the svartalves."

Completely and utterly neutral.

Sure.

Mab better get infected and try to eat Molly's eyes or something pretty goddamn soon, because I'm kind of getting sick of this wankery. And I know it's wankery, because the protagonist rolled over like a bitch to a shoddily made argument, and as far as wankery symptoms go, that's a large, pulsating tumor sticking out of your face.

Previous book: "Fuck all your shit, I have choice! Just because you imply something is true, doesn't make it true, and just because you twisted my arm to sign, doesn't mean I belong to you!"

This book: "I instantly acquiesce that my saving Molly's life from the headsmans' axe the only way possible and then doing my very best to do right by her, barring a few small mistakes and one colossal one, is inherently the exact same to knowingly setting her up to be unwillingly transformed into an immortal entity that will eventually subsume her free will, identity, and soul as part of a gambit I have been planning for years."

Yeah. No. You were doing good with the gun to the face, Harry. Why the hell did you stop?

Overall, I like it, but it felt rushed. Obviously there were spots that I didn't like, and there were far, far more things that I did, but really, this just felt like two plots that could have, and probably should have, been put into two separate books. Fairy Stuff + Outsider and Warden Stuff just seems like it was too much.

Murphy didn't even punch Harry in the face for not being dead, you asshole, do you have any idea how long I cried over that? At your fucking funeral?

"Murph is unbelievably traumatized! But we're on a tight schedule, and that was two hours ago, so now everything's fine!"

At least Santa Claus is also Odin. I can only assume that the next book will reveal that he is also Zeus and The Most Interesting Man In The World. And Optimus Prime.

 

Yeah, they are totally like Batman. Everyone knows that he only saves Gotham so one day he can rule it with an iron fist.

As for the Winter Court being portrayed less and less evil (or inhuman, depending on a perspective). Well, personally I don't see it, but it can be explained in two ways. One, since we perceive them as Harry does, it can be that he changed so much that many thing don't affect him as they did before. Or two, Mab decided to tone it down for him and corrupt him gradually.

Also, while I would prefer Odin and Santa to be different persons, it's not something that Butcher simply made up.

 

That's the White Court. The Winter Court gains no tangible benefit from soloing the endless hordes of Cthulhu, beyond the benefits that everyone gets. Or in other words, they are sacrificing themselves to hold back Lovecraftian doom while their counterparts, and indeed everyone else, sits around with their thumbs up their asses doing nothing.

If this was something both Courts were doing? Sure. I could buy that. Fairies are secret protectors of reality, why not.

But no. It's pretty much exclusively Winter. Aka the Evil Fairies, aka the Disney Villains, aka why the fuck. This really just makes Summer look like a bunch of useless whiners, and while I'm all for portraying fairies in a negative light (Brothers Grimm! Batshit insane!), it should really be done in a moderately equal fashion. Doing it mostly to one side just feels wankish, and right now, it's pretty much Summer that's getting shown poorly here.

 

Winter as a whole is not really evil, nor was it ever.

 

Still not seeing what your problem is. The Winter Court doesn't sacrifice themselves out of the goodness of their hearts. They want the world for themselves and even fighting the Outsiders they have enough resources to still conquer it, hence the Summer Court is there to stop them.

Additionally, we can't be sure who else is protecting the Outergates. The Winter Court is basically flooding the place, but Rashid's presence suggest that other fractions also have their representatives around there.

 

Vadderung being Kringle wasn't bad. It's mythologically supported by Odin's love of disguises and the cultural blend-over of the Wild Hunt and Christmas. It's also not some sort of OP thing, either - it could just be a mantle he puts on during that time of year that allows him to act separately from the Aesir. Power-wise, I'd compare it to the Denarians going beast-form - just a physical disguise.

I agree with Raine on the fairies bit, though. While I wouldn't say that faeries have become sympathetic per-say (Harry's birthday party was very succinct proof of that. 'New Winter Knight? Time to throttle his assistant, Mab's other daughter, for funsies. Cue erection from every faerie in the room.'), but this defending reality bit does bug me.

I mean, is the big war at the Stone Table just for kicks? Because if they both have an pretty important fucking duty to, as I understand it, sustain goddamn reality, going to war every year seems retarded. Why even divide the courts in the first place, God (since canon basically all but says that Genesis is right and God accidentally'd the universe.)? Just make the Court of the Cthulhu Punching, lock-off the Nevernever from mortals and allow faeries to protect people forever. I mean, it's not like they have the important stuff like free will or a soul, which is the point of them being the cannon fodder of existence.

All I can assume for plot-holes sake is that Titania and Mab have some major fucking beef that hasn't been stated yet, given that they haven't talked directly to eachother in over an eon. Because it seems pants-on-head dumb to

A) Create beings on a separate plane without free will or soul designed to protect reality from the Outside.

B) Make it their inviolable nature to try to destroy eachother every year. Also, to make the Nevernever a place mortals can even visit. Why even.

I mean, it's not like they're fucking play-acting come the solistice. This book established that - at the Stone Table, Mab and Titania can die.

Granted, there are both kinds of faeires at the Outer Gates (Seelie are stated to be the healers there).

But this format just seems dumb. I look at this, and at it's omnipotent creator, and can only think, 'nice job fucking it up, God.'

Where the fuck are these hilariously over-powered angels we keep running into, acting as mall cops for the afterlife? It's not like they're holding back the Fallen, that's the Knights job.

 

What? There are no annual, or biannual more likely, battles between the Courts at the Stone Table. The whole point of the fourth book was that it was a bad thing that they decided to do it.

EDIT: The Knights' job is to protect the world from the Denarians, not all Fallens.

 

I think many people are making the mistake of thinking of the Courts as too human. The Winter Court isn't doing what they're doing because they want to, or choose to. They do it because it's their purpose. They don't lie, they like to make bargains, they guard the outer gates. It's part of what they are (now).

 

Raine, you're missing something very important when you're looking at the Winter Court. Their innate nature is one of conquest and brutality. If they didn't have Summer watching their every move Mab would take over the world.

You seem to think Winter does the whole Guarding the Outer Gates thing out of the goodness of their heart, but it's much deeper than that. It's a fundamental part of the Winter psyche to do this, and they have to be the absolutely most brutal, cunning and devious motherfuckers in the world because they're facing the most brutal, cunning and devious motherfuckers from the Outside.

Suffice it to say that if Titania wasn't around to do what she's doing, Mab would have conquered the world and conscripted every man, woman, child, vampire, demon, ghoul and wizard into fighting the Outsiders.

 

Wasn't there some Summer Fairies also fighting against the outsiders in the Outer Gate.