I think it was refered to as "banefire" in the book. But yeah, I also pretty much just started calling it "balefire" in my head too.


And about the Darkhallow... If it can only draw in spirits... Well, how much of the Wyld Hunt is spirits? We saw in Cold Days that some of those shadowy beings are actually transformed humans...

Furthermore, we know that the Darkhallow was going to make spirits to devour -- by spreading a shockwave of death (well, a void of life I think, but whatever) through Chicago and thereby feast off of all the people in Chicago.

So it stands to reason that, potentially, the Darkhallow might be able to feed off of the nasties in Demonreach. Especially if it does the void-of-life thing which would rip out and devour their lifeforce.


Mind, that would probably have terrible effects for the ascension ritual. Eating that much evil-ium can't be good for you. Not that killing over 2 million people with necromancy wasn't going to be horribly evil. Just, "the flesh and soul of dark gods" is probably even worse.

Oh yeah, and like people said, there's also the "kill it with fire, fire, fire and MORE fire" countermeasure from Demonreach. Have fun with that.

 

Yeah. Butcher did mention recently that apparently there was a love triangle between Mab, Titania and Oberon and Oberon got ripped in two in the process, but I doubt thats the origin of it.

In truth it may simply be that its something inherent to the whole Sidhe thing. I mean its been repeatedly stated that the only beings in Dresdenverse with Free Will are mortals. It may be that when the original Sidhe did their powergrab and "ascended" (or whatever), they were just somehow linked to the seasons and naturally became opposed. Not totally (or collaboration at the gates would be impossible), but enough that its hard to co-exist.

Titania did state that Mab is (mostly) a creature of cold reason and logic while she is (mostly) one of hot temper and emotion. Their enmity could just be a case of two opposing forces conflicting naturally, rather than any particular family tragedy.

Hmm, true. I was mostly considering the possibility that Aurora might have been healable, in that she did not act like Maeve did. She seemed confused and conflicted when she died, and like you say she thought she was doing the right thing.

Why could Titania not just come and say, "You are possessed by an outsider calld Nemesis. You believe you are doing the right thing, but if you proceed you will actually destroy the planet. I can cure you if you wish it. You know I cannot lie so this is truth". That would obviously not have worked on Maeve, who was fully AWARE that she was infected and reveled in the resulting freedom. She openly talked of Nemesis plans to infect others and blow up the island as a matter of course.

But Aurora never gave any signs like that. For someone who cannot lie and who is aware of Nemesis and the war against outsiders (Titania), how hard could it have been to convince Aurora that despite what she was being made to believe, she was NOT doing the right thing, and accept healing? And given that we know Lea is actually more powerfull than the ladies, if Aurora had wanted healing, Titania could have done it. Its possible Titania simply did not realise what was happening until Aurora was dead, but that has its problems too.

At best, she must have known/suspected that Nemesis had infected Aurora. I mean her whole rage bit at CD was about losing Aurora. That to me atleast implies that they had a very close relationship, far closer than that of Mab and Maeve. And even Mab cared a lot for her daughters, so how could Nemesis possibly have avoided detection by Titania in Aurora so totally, while simultaneously manipulating Aurora to commit murder of the Summer Knight and committing armageddon?

And if she knew, then inaction under those circumstances is a charge IMHO. Perhaps its not her duty to fight Nemesis exactly (fighting outsiders is Mabs job), but even so how hard would it have been to just lock Aurora up so she could not do harm?

Actually, a third one just occurred to me. What if it was the Winter Knight Slate? We know Lea was infected by the athame at book 3. We also know that she then proceeded to infect Maeve before Mab managed to catch her and start healing her. Slate was mostly working for Maeve, and was infact chosen as a knight by Maeve. What if Lea infected both of them?

Sarissa confirmed that Slate was not originally the evil rapist. That means he would have been under heavy pressure of being altered/twisted by the Mantle of the winter knight, and again, not a trained/disciplined wizard like Harry so I can easily see him losing that fight. Would seem to me, that he would be exceptioanlly vulnerable to being infected by Nemesis? And as Mabs handmaiden, Lea would have easy access to him.

After being infected, Slate could then have approached Aurora and pretended to be a traitor. Aurora might have thought him a fool that she could manipulate, only to end up infected by Slate instead. Slate(or Nemesis) could then have continued to pretend to be a fool, while secretly being the one in charge of the whole mess.

It might also explain why Mab was torturing Slate so extremely. I assumed that Mab was just being evil and making an object lesson, but what if it was more than that? What if Mab knew at the time that Maeve was infected, and was basically torturing Slate so heavily because in a way, she was also torturing (a small piece of) Nemesis in revenge for Maeve.

Or its possible I suppose that we can skip the middleman and have Lea be the one to infect Aurora. I mean presumably Lea could have lied while possessed just like Maeve, but Aurora would not have known. Lea could simply have asked for a meeting with Aurora and sworn a total oath(a lie) not to harm her in any way. And then infected her. If Lea could infect Maeve, then its not beyond posibility that she could infect Aurora.

Actually, I wonder now if selling Harrys debt to Mab may have been one of the last efforts Lea did before being consumed. Can you imagine what would have happened if Lea had NOT done that? Lea had total access to Harrys mind thanks to that debt in book 3. If Lea had not sold Harry to Mab, Harry would probably have been Nemesis himself by book 4. And from there, it would have been a short jump for the Blackstaff of the White Council to be infected.

It should be mentioned though that Cat Sith was able to fight back to a slight degree when Harry urged it. And Lea was able to force control for the few brief moments in book 8 to warn Harry not to release her. One would presume that someone as powerfull as a Queen would also be able to resist, and would probably be taken over slowly, with the infection spreading gradually. If Titania was totally taken over, she could just have killed Mab in this book, which would have allowed Maeve to rise up to Mabs position. That would basically have meant that Nemesis had full control of the forces at the outer gate. It would have been instant victory. Instead Nemesis had to try and manipulate Harry into killing Mab. So if Titania is infected, she is atleast fighting it still.

I cannot help but wonder why the Mothers don't do anything to help cure Titania in that case however? Maybe they cannot. The Mothers seem most removed from things, and there is obviously something unique about them that is not the case with Mab and Titania. If the idea that they are two fragments of somekind of planetary spirit are true, then perhaps they simply cannot risk any contact with Nemesis.

Yeah, though it should be said that Mab did say that even the Gatekeeper "at the focus of his power" cannot tell for sure. And the Gatekeeper literally has a piece of the outer gates stuck in his eye socket. Furthermore, Mab by extension sorta admitted that Rashid is better at detecting Nemesis than she is. So Nemesis can presumably infect someone and then lie dormant until its time to act for as long as it wants basically. Which does explain how Lea managed to infect Maeve. Mab only caught on once Lea was literally acting differently and doing things Lea would not/could not do.

I would say that if Nemesis is the "final villain" of the story, then Morgana probably was not behind its creation. Might be the other way around even.

This is an interesting idea. Though I wonder about the fact that Mab was basically holding the Athame in book 7 when she answered Harrys summoning of Lea. If the knife was inherently corruptive then would she not have frozen it in ice or something rather than keeping it in her person. The fact that Mab had it on her person kinda implies to me that Nemesis was somehow in the Athame, but then jumped from it to Lea, and the Athame is now clean. Or atleast clean of Nemesis. Not all betrayals/evils have to be done by that guy.

We do know that Elaine is also a Starborn and it was confirmed in this book that Starborn have the ability to resist. It should be said however that there is a difference between resistance and immunity. When the Walker in this book attacked Harry, he was on the defensive at first, with illusionary Mab about to start torturing him. Harry caught on due to smelling rust (no iron around Mab), and then managed to fight and defeat the Walker (and apparently free not just himself but everyone), but it was clearly a struggle.

Consider, Harry has been shown to be pretty resistant to mental attacks.
He not just resisted Lasciels shadow, but actually changed it in turn. Something so unheard of that it convinced Uriel to basically throw his lot with Harry. He managed to use his Will to shatter the chains of Mother Winter in this book. He managed to fight off Corpsetaker for a while, who was a master mind-wizard with virtually no training. And ofcourse, he managed to flee Justin, when Justin tried to take control of Harrys mind.

Elaine claimed that Justin DID manage to take control of her however. Even if Justin really did just use ordinary mind magic, that would still presumably have left her mind damaged. We also know that in book 9, that White Court vampire managed to easily manipulate her into nearly committing suicide. And since she is not a member of the White Council, she has presumably not received the recent hardcore training that WC members received in fighting off mental invasions. And she certainly would not have on-the-job experience that would come from resisting Lasciel, or the ability to use soulfire to draw on her soul to help resist.

Is it not possible that Elaine just lacks the mental discipline or perhaps just the stubborness that Harry has, and while she may have had the potential as a starborn to resist, unlike Harry she is just not skilled and strong enough to do so. Don't forget that the walker did try to recruit Harry, so they obviously want Starborn on their side. Perhaps the powers of one can be used to assist outsiders just as easily as they can harm.

Mab stated that when Nemesis is dormant in someone, it is near impossible to detect, even by the Gatekepeer. And unfortunately, in an effort to protect Elaine from the WCouncil, Harry had not revealed to anyone that Justin had another apprentice. Which might well mean that the Gatekeeper does NOT know that there is another Starborn out there that might have been infected. Harry should really come clean and ask the Gatekeeper to go check her out, but I bet he wont.

I could well see Nemesis having infected Elaine, but being quiet and dormant for now, so it can take over at a critical juncture and use her powers as a starborn to do something uniquely catastrophic.

 

More specifically, it allows you to eat beings that originate from the Nevernever. You could, for instance, use the ritual to devour Red Court Vampires, because they're half-and-half. You could (probably) not use it on White Court, because the Phage is inside their soul, and we don't know enough about Black Court to make an educated call on it.

Indian Joe called the Naagloshi "angry ghosts," so I'd assume they qualify. A lot of what's back there would probably qualify as well, though some of it likely wouldn't.

However, it's not really a problem, because Merlin's Godwards are protecting it. You'd presumably have to trigger the Darkhallow inside the prison itself for it to have any effect. Just doing it on the island wouldn't give you squat. And the only beings who could give access to the prison are Demonreach, who wouldn't, and Harry, who isn't that stupid.

You'd think the same for doing it to the Wild Hunt. It's a power transfer, nothing more. It wouldn't drive you any crazier than doing it to anything else would.

 

Well, I don't know about the Darkhallow specifically, but... "power transfer" is hardly an innocous and harmless thing. Depending on what kind of transfer it is, how it's being done, what's the source, who is the recipient, etc, it all varies.

Corpsetaker, for instance, went after the ghosts in Ghost Story because she wanted their crazy. Their twisted minds let them manifest in the physical world.

The Mantles of Winter and Summer can affect those who hold it.

The Archive... well. It changes the inheritor.

Now, if the Darkhallow definitely does a sort of... grounding up of all energy sources, and breaking them down into pure energy, before feeding them to the caster... Yeah, if its like that, then maybe the "sanitized" form of power might be safe.

Still, I feel like the Wild Hunt is quite different from the inmates of Demonreach. I mean, it doesn't merit being called the same sort/type of insanity, for thinking of eating one.

Both options make me go "Daaamn"/"Holy shit" but the Demonreach one also makes me go "oh shit, this is setting off all my 'You Just Tried to Take a Bite Out Of Pure Evil' alarms."


Though, it might be the Darkhallow just sorta grinds up and reduces to pure energy anything that it catches. If the ritual made you absorb everything spiritual nearby, it might not be useable because you'd be guaranteed to have dozens if not hundreds of insane things, plus the simple fact of so many different things being devoured... well, it wouldn't be useful if the ritual turned you into some insane being with a thousand different minds, howling voices and personas, now would it? So it might have some safety measures -- for the caster, anyway...

 

The Archive isn't an inheritor of power, it's an inheritor of knowledge. It just so happens that with knowledge comes a certain degree 'of' power, and since the knowledge included also includes magical knowledge, the Archive is by definition the Best Wizard Ever, even if the female vessel were not to be born with the gift. Even without it, you could still kick ass, knowing that much about magic. And the Archive does.

What's happening with the Archive is different. We're talking an impossibly huge influx of knowledge, memories, and raw data. It would be the equivalent of waterboarding someone with a million pensives. Of course insanity is a risk. I'd argue that the Archive can't be totally sane by definition, simply because of how much they learned, and how quickly they continue to learn (as all recorded knowledge gets added to the collective in real-time). Even if the magic that allows the Archive to exist is acting as both a buffer and a receptacle, that's too much strain on the human mind for something to not give.

But there is no indication that the Darkhallow gives memories or knowledge. It's just a power boost, though perhaps calling it 'just' is something of an understatement of it's magnitude and scope.

 

While this might be true, I believe the primary "diet" for the Darkhallow was dead spirits right? I mean it was a necromancy ritual designed to consume ghosts. In the book it was stated that the primary reason for summoning Erlking was NOT to eat Erlking himself, but rather to use his presence to bring forth spirits. The older the spirit, the more power it has. Erlkings presence automatically summons forth ancient hunter spirits that are countless centuries old. The kemmlerites could not possibly summon them all individually, which is why they wanted Erlkings presence. Heck, was it even confirmed that Erlking himself would be consumed? I did a quick search on butchers forum using his username and "darkhallow", and the only post in any way related implied that Erlking (and the Sidhe such as Mab&Titania) got their core powers in a rite similar to darkhallow (though probably more primitive), but it did not confirm that Erlking would have been consumed by the rite. Heck, the fact that Erlking got his powers in the same way would suggest to me that he would have known to get very far the moment the rite started, just in case.

Anyway, we know that dead spirits are not "real" in the sense that many other entities are. Harry himself once ate a ghost in book 3 and not much happened as a result. I could see it being easy to rip apart what is basically just an energy echo of a soul that once was and distill it into pure power. Mab states in the book that Kemmler discovered a way to "rend them asunder", so presumably ghosts are indeed put through a shredder and turned to just raw energy without any memories or such.

But doing it to the types of entities that are trapped in Demonreach would presumably be a very different thing. Those are not echoes of dead humans, they are fullblown (demi)-gods and eldritch abominations. Might be that there are even outsiders or such in that prison. Even IF Darkhallow could consume them without major modifications to the ritual (which in itself is unlikely IMHO, since the rite was designed FOR dead ghosts), I suspect that all that would happen is that the caster would end up possessed by who knows what horror.

And that is assuming ofcourse that it would actually be possible to try. I tend to agree that Merlins magics would prevent Darkhallow from reaching the prisoners on the island at all. As for the Demonreach Spirit itself, I don't believe that Darkhallow would have any effect on it for the simple reason that Cowl (confirmed to work for Nemesis in CD) would presumably have used Darkhallow on that thing instead if it was possible. Nemesis wants Demonreach destroyed.

I mean if it was all that simple, why would Kemmler have bothered with some silly ghosts in the first place? Why would Kemmler not have tried to eat some pre-existing god such as Odin or summoned Mab and eaten her.

Still, the book is still out there in the hands of Mavra, and evil-Bob also knows how to perform the rite. I bet we will hear of Darkhallow yet. Even if all it does is eat ghosts and turn you into a demi-god on Mabs level, its still really big thing.

 

While I agree that if you somehow pulled off the Darkhallow on Demonreach and it worked be Castiel and the Leviathans redux. Setting aside Merlin's Über "Fuck You and The Horse You Rode In On" wards I have a hard time believing it would work based on the prisoners strength alone. "Dark Gods, Nameless Horrors etc. etc." were the gist of what Demonreach called them and combined with Vadderungs statement that them being released would be the literal end of everything I think that trying to use the Darkhallow on them would be like trying to suck down Jupiter with a crazy straw.

Also a couple random things, thinking about Merlin's Über wards and the story of The Merlin stonewalling an entire army of Outsiders with a ward is anyone else wondering about a possible connection? Maybe it's a requirement of the job to be an unbelievable master of wards or more crazy maybe the position itself either grants or bolsters your ability to create Godwards.

 

Two things:

1. If you're the Warden, would Merlin's magic even try to stop you?

2. I'm not sure if the power of the thing the darkhallow is being used on is relevant. It was never presented as the kind of thing that can be resisted. That's why it's such a big deal.

 

Ehhh you could be right but assuming its not limited to spirits I have a hard time believing that if Kemmler created a ritual that could carve through anything like that, that folks like Mab would have stopped at remarking that he was a madman and brilliant. If it was an honest threat to beings on that scale and not just simply able to put someone onto it who wasn't before I think when the WC showed up on Kemmlers door they would have found nothing but a Tunguska sized crater.

 

If I remember correctly, the beings who are in Demonreach are contained there because they could not be dealt with in another way. So I'm assuming there are either immortal or near-immortal.

At the same time, the darkhallow allow it's user to power up by absorbing the energy of the dead which will in turn create a void that will decimate all living things around to try and fill the void and being absorbed again in the ritual.

So, if the beings on the island can't die or if their death don't fill up the void created by the the absorption of the dead's energy, they won't power the ritual and it wouldn't as useful as doing in a city with high density of population.

 

That's why you do it on Halloween, when they can die.

 

Well, strictly speaking the creatures are imprisoned even for the Warden. The difference is, that the Warden can potentially release those creatures, so IF it was possible to use Darkhallow this way, it might be possible to order Demonreach to release the nasty thing just seconds before the Darkhallow completed. I suppose someone skilled enough to eat a god could also modify the ritual to eat them straight from the prison too.

It should also be pointed out that the dark leyline which was powerfull enough to imprison the Archive was stated to basically be the "bodyheat" of the prisoners. And Rashid said that tapping even that latent energy would be enough to change Harry with his current skill (Rashid said it would be years yet until Harry was skilled enough not to be changed, so I bet he does it in the final trilogy). I think actually eating one of the prisoners would destroy him utterly.

Though I admit that if it was possible to develop a ritual to consume a god, Demonreach would be the best place to do it since the gods there are already imprisoned, whereas trying to eat say Odin would likely require a huge fight first.

Darkhallow was stated in book 7 to be a necromantic rite that consumes ghosts specifically. Its possible to speculate that it might be used for something else, but that was not suggested in the book at all. Ghosts are the latent energies left behind when a human dies. The older such a ghost is, the more powerfull. Human ghosts are more powerfull than animal ghosts, unless the difference is humongous (T-rex ghost turned zombie was stronger than human ghost turned zombie, but only due to being millions of years older). What made Darkhallow scary, was the fact that it could take an average mortal wizard and make them into a demi-god. And kill lots of people due to the energy vacuum. Actually, I cannot recall if the deaths caused by the ritual would even feed the caster. I guess they might create new ghosts, which could then also be eaten, but this powerup would be minimal given how the age of the ghosts was emphasized to be a factor.

Remember, that ghosts and shades like this are NOT the souls of real living humans or anything like that. The difference has been VERY clearly defined in Dresdenverse. One of the big deals of Ghost Story, was that Dresden was running around as a true soul, while everyone else was basically just a fake copy left behind. The fact that Dresden was able to create a ghost of himself by just having his heart stop for a second or something like that shows you how insignificant such "imprints" are. I presume thats also why Dresden gained little from eating the imprint of Kravos. He was basically brand new. You need imprints that are many centuries old to gain any real power, which is why Erlking was so important. Erlking caused those centuries old imprints to reappear.

What you are talking about here, is quite literally stealing the powers of godlike beings like Odin or Mab or Uriel or the like. I don't really see how you can so easily jump from a ritual that devours thousands of these soulless imprints, to a ritual that literally transfers the powers of a god to the user just like that. And here we are even talking about transferring the powers of dozens of godlike beings and abominations.

Darkhallow just cannot be that powerfull. That would be magic on an scale far beyond what Darkhallow was implied to be. Like Krogan said, if Darkhallow could do this, Mab would not just have offered Harry a few hints. She would directly have intervened to stop the ritual. And she would not have been alone.

I do admit that Bob did imply that Immortals can grow and steal power at halloween, so the process itself is possible. And to become an immortal demi-god also needed a halloween, so thats the only time Darkhallow could work. So maybe it would be possible to create a DIFFERENT ritual based on the principles of Darkhallow that would do something like this. But to be honest I wonder if its necessary. I got the impression that if you are an immortal godlike entity, you can nick power from others just by default if you can just beat them.

Maybe if such an immortal could break into the prison, it could try to consume atleast some power from the prisoners, but I get the impression that only a mortal can be a Warden. I could see the original Merlin making this a requirement specifically for this reason actually. So that there would be no temptation of "snacking on the prisoners".

And to be honest, given how carefull Merlin was, I cannot help but wonder if its as easy for the Warden to free the prisoners as Demonreach said. I mean what would happen if Harry had a mental breakdown and ordered Demonreach to just release all the prisoners. Surely Merlin would have anticipated the possibility of the Warden going mad or even just being tempted/corrupted by power. It would not surprise me if an order to "release the prisoners" is actually a trigger phrase to trap yourself in one of those crystals.

 

Slight change of topic. I was rereading Changes and noticed this ...

That cheaky son of a gun ...

 

If you're 'a' Warden? Yes. There is no indication that the Warden organization has any sort of supernatural power whatsoever. I very much doubt any part of the system would give a fraction of a shit if Luccio or Morgan or whoever showed up and tried to get in.

If you're 'the' Warden? I'd say no. Demonreach flat-out said that Harry could release everything there if he wanted to. He is The Warden. That makes him the only mortal (or immortal, for that matter) who has an all-access passcard to the site, with the possible exception of Demonreach itself, which doesn't even really count, because Demonreach is a place.

If it could be resisted, then picking a Lord of Fairie in the pilot seat of a supernatural force of nature as a target was a terrible idea. I'm almost positive it can't be resisted by anything that doesn't have VIP access to Creation. That's kind of the entire point. It's something that can eat anything. Even gods and immortals, if done on Halloween night. If it was anything less, it wouldn't be that big of a deal.

 

Side note, Why wouldn't Demonreach just kill them with the fire on Halloween?

 

Maybe it's constantly taking in more prisoners as needed? Also, the whole massive collateral damage thing is probably be a factor.

 

I am still waiting for the proof that Erlking was the goal, when the book clearly states that the Kemmlerites wanted the GHOSTS that Erlking would bring up rather than the guy himself.

The purpose of the Darkhallow was to eat those specters Mab mentions, not Erlking himself. Erlkings only purpose was to awaken those ghosts, so they would be there for the eating, not get eaten himself. Without Erlking, the only ghosts available would have been the average ghosts in the city, which would have resulted in a MUCH smaller and weaker buffet. Probably too small to reach the level of a god.

 

Can someone provide a quote or something that says the Darkhallow could absorb the energy of an immortal?

I mean, I get the logic behind it. Immortals can die on Halloween night, and so on. But as far as I can remember, we're only told that the Darkhallow consumes ghosts/spirits. It kills everything near it, because of the energy vacuum, but just because it kills them doesn't mean it'll absorb it. If the Darkhallow in Chicago had succeeded, it would have killed Harry. But if Dresden didn't leave an imprint or ghost behind after he died, there wouldn't have been any energy for it to absorb.

Least that's how I took it. If there's a quote telling otherwise, I'd be interested in seeing it.

EDIT: Basically what Datakim said.

 

I was under the impression that the attack breaking the wards was what would've made the island go boom, not the banefire?

 

Wards are broken -> isolation breached -> Demonreach triggers the ArmaFailSafe.