Now I have two definite required scenes thanks to you >.<, I have got to see Harry get pissed and pull the will bind trick on someone. Personally I'm hoping for a lackey Warden when Harry reunites with the White Council and one of them jumps the gun. Two I want to see Harry taking lessons from Lash on tricks like the Will bind and such, I've always had a soft spot a mile wide for Lash/Lasciel.

@Zeel- I've heard the same, for the life of me I can't remember where but I think it was a WoJ post.

 

She's pretty adorable.

And yeah, I'm pretty sure it's WoJ.

 

I thought it was Mab/Titania that were on par with the archangels, rather than the mothers?

 

Mab and Titania have enough power to wipe out planet Earth. Uriel has enough power to destroy everything in existence. Every planet, every star, every solar system, every galaxy. He could destroy the entire universe.

Difference.

 

I'm not sure it goes that far. Jim only said that Uriel and the others could wipe out galaxies, I think.

 

I would really like to know the status of that statement, though. I mean, Harry just comes out with it out of nowhere. How does Harry know the extent of Uriel's power? Can we trust his opinion on this matter to be word of god?

 

Wait Harry is the one who says that? I'm not saying your wrong I just don't remember that.

 

Pretty sure it was Harry, after he accidentally insults Uriel by giving him a nickname lacking the "el". Harry gets truly scared by Uriel, and invents the nickname Mr. Sunshine as a sort of apology.

And Harry is a source we can trust to be only reasonably accurate. So more powerfull than Mab and the Mothers maybe, but universal level destruction? Less sure of that.

However I should point out that one thing I do remember Butcher confirming is that the archangels are totally unable to act directly, except in response to the act from a fallen, and then only in equal strength. Uriel may indeed have the power to wipe galaxies, but its utterly meaningless since he could only use that level of power if Lucifer first created a new galaxy or something (which Uriel would balance by wiping it out).

We see that even though Uriel clearly wants Harry to be powered up and supported, he could only give Soulfire after Lucifer acts FIRST. He literally CANNOT heal Harrys back in Changes without becoming a fallen (confirmed WOG) himself, and the best he can do afterwards to help Harry with Mab is to take a big risk and NOT stop one of the fallen from killing Harry and trusting Mab to save him, just so he will be able to speak 7 words of true meaning. If he had not lucked out with the fallen killing Harry directly, Uriel would have been able to NOTHING while Mab turned Harry into a monster, despite all his raw power.

His raw power may be vast, but he is so limited in the usage of that power that its meaningless. Uriels true strength comes from his ability to subtly run right to the edge of the rules and carefully manipulate events to try and arrange things to his favour. He basically tends to work more like Mab and the Sidhe do, which is why there is a comparison that his "power" is similar to theirs.

I think this is also why Mab respects Uriel and believes him to be the most powerfull of the archangels, because he is the best there is at this. Presumably the other archangels are less good, so they also have humongous raw power, and the ability to basically do nothing except sit on that power and watch things happen without being able to actually do a damn thing, except in very rare cases. Whats the biggest and greatest feat of power the Archangel Michael has in the series that we know of? The answer: Giving a sword to Sanya.

Uriel is the one who has people like Harry and Jack Murphy working for him, and who tries his best to twist things to support them, because they actually have more power to actually do stuff than he does. Uriel presumably could not lie to Harry and get him to willingly risk his soul to learn the lessons he did (which I presume led to the Soulfire understanding boost) in Ghost Story, but he could "hire" Jack and basically trust that Jack would lie or otherwise convince Dresden to do it for him. And at the end, we see him hiring the spirit of Stuart to start working for him aswell.

In that sense, we could claim that everything Harry does is actually a part of Uriels actual true power, just like Toot was considered a part of Harrys power when he and his folk fatally wounded Aurora in Harrys name.

 

Ohhh now that you mention it, it's starting to click. I do remember that now, I'm with you on the whole no Universal scale destruction though.

 

No. You didn't.

Point to the first: It wasn't Harry. It was Harry using Soulfire.

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Harry used Soulfire to do it. He didn't do it himself. He had a revelation on how to use something he had been gifted with to create a shortcut and make use of it himself. I'll be impressed when he can manage it without Soulfire, but until then, that's Uriel's gift paying long term dividends, not any actual merit of Harry's, beyond the cleverness needed to figure it out.

Point to the second: It was a test. You say it was not. This is how I know you didn't bother to read the scene. Because they actually say flat-out that it was a goddamn test.

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Point to the third: She could have killed him at any point if she had actually wanted to, unless you're naive enough to believe Mother Winter can actually miss at near point-blank range throwing her cleaver in her own home. Or that she has to resort to throwing kitchen utensils to kill people. Or that THE DARKNESS would offer any sort of protection whatsoever against the being the Queen of Air and DARKNESS calls "mother."

I have an idea. After fighting Mother Winter in the dark, how about we sic some trained monsters on Scylla? And then maybe we can go try to drown fucking Posidon?

If she had let him win that any more obviously, she would have had training wheels bolted to the sides of the cleaver. If she had actually wanted him dead, she could have popped his head off like a champagne cork in the beginning when she dragged him there, or made the shadows eat him, or something.


In conclusion: Stop bullshitting godpowers onto the underdog protagonist. It's annoying, and it's factually inaccurate. I'm not against speculation at all, and thoroughly enjoy it, but it's irritating to listen to someone try to twist events so that the protagonist becomes a Mary Sue. Harry will never get that kind of power up. Ever. Because he's Harry Dresden. He doesn't win by smashing everything to death with his gigantic magic penis. He wins by being a sneaky, dirty, clever motherfucker. Please stop trying to turn Batman into Superman.

[EDIT]

There may have been an unnecessary goddamn or fucking in there somewhere. I apologize. In my defense, I worked long shift, had no lunch, and was then forced to attend a soup party for most of the evening.

And those Scottish bastards with the backpacks in ACIII are the most bullshit cheating motherfuckers EVER CONCEIVED. FUCK YOUR AUTO-COUNTERING MY COUNTERS AND EXECUTIONS. FUCK YOUR OVERPOWERED SWORDS. AND FUCK YOUR GUN RELOADING TIME. IT IS A GODDAMN MUSKET. YOU CANNOT FIRE IT THAT FAST.

I swear on every dark god that is yet unchained, I will scalp every last one of you in your sleep.

 

Lord Raine, I believe you are continuing to pick a fight where there is no longer one to be had.

 

Harry compares Mab and Titania to the Archangels before he's actually met an Archangel back in Summer Knight. I'm pretty sure it's just a case of him being a somewhat unreliable narrator.

 

Not sure how and why you divide Harry and the Soulfire.. it is a part of him and his power not a separate entity. I always thought that Uriel only unlocked it/created a shortcut for him to use it. So for a split second he managed to stand up against the will of mother winter.

 

Nah, Bob said something about soulfire being what the angels use. I'm pretty sure it was a gift that Uriel gave Harry.

Its the sane thing as hellfire. Except he doesn't need a coin to access it.

 

^This
It was always stated very specifically that this was a rare gift given to Harry to balance things out because Lucifer shoved his nose into the equation. It was not something he had in any way before hand.

 

But it was something he had when he confronted RK's Will. Infact, now that I think of it, it was even mentioned in Changes that he was infusing Soulfire to his magic accidentally during the book, and even complained about it to Uriel who made it clear that Harry had chosen to use it (accidentally through lack of knowledge/skill I guess). Nothing like that ever happened in Cold Days. Harry's understanding and control of Soulfire has clearly increased significantly. When taken together with how Lash mentioning how Harry would have to "cease living" to learn some things, I figure perhaps Uriel may have partially planned the near death experience to teach Harry what Soulfire truly is and how to truly use it.

Basically, the only thing that changed between books was Harrys understanding of what Soulfire is and how to use it. In Changes, he had no idea that he could so easily shatter RK's will with it. In Cold Days, he instantly realises that he can use it on MW's attack.

The original idea was that maybe Harry had performed self-sacrifice for knowldge Odin-style or somesuch. I figure that knowledge on Soulfire usage applies, and I think he gained it from running around in his pure soul without body in Ghost Story. The sacrifice could be the fact that according to Bob, if he had been truly killed in that form, he would truly have been utterly annihilated forever, and denied afterlife and so on.

And Raine, I don't care if MW let Harry win or not. The bottom line remains that it was confirmed that her test WAS more difficult than RK's. Maybe that means that Mother Winter is such a huge badass that even her tests are way tougher than the best real attacks of Red King? I am totally fine with that. And I am fine with the idea that Mother Winter could have killed Harry at any point if she really wanted to. I even agreed that she could have before.

Still does not change the fact that her Will bonds (even as a test) were still stronger than RK's, and Harry had the power(in the form of new knowledge) to break those stronger bonds. And that the way she was thrown back does suggest that she was surprised at the ease with which he did it (even if she was only doing it at 5%).

I also dont believe that being able to do it own his own would give Harry godpowers or turn him into a "Superman" as you say. Why? Because it WAS indeed a Soulfire use and clearly required it, and Butcher has made it clear that this uses Harrys very soul in fuel. As Bob said, 5-5=0.

I just figure that if it is used, its indeed used by Harry through cleverness. For example, using it for just one single second to paralyze the opponent so he can reach his gun and start firing. I don't believe he can just start just pointing his finger and permanently chain real enemies this way, since if he did that he would use up his soul fast and DIE. Less Superman, more Batman with a new tool in his belt that can help IF its used with cleverness and sneakiness.

 

I don't think you're quite understanding what soulfire is. It's literally your soul turned into energy, so what Uriel gave to Harry wasn't a power source, it was the ability to tap his own soul for power. Angels and humans are able to use it (theoretically, in the humans' case) because they both have souls.

So yeah, Harry isn't tapping into Uriel's power when he uses soulfire, he's tapping into his own. It's even described as making you more of what you are.

 

Yeah, the comparison to hellfire was more along the lines of 'Lash gave him hellfire, Uriel gave Harry soulfire'. The comparison stands, even though one's a power source and the other is an ability. Harry would have never been able to use soulfire without Uriel giving him the ability to do it, just like he would have never been able to use hellfire before he picked up the coin.

Probably could have phrased the comparison better in my original post.

 

But its done now, which means that anything after Small Favor has Harry as a soulfire user.

I think it could be viewed as magic. Harry was born with strong magical abilities, while Murphy was not. Neither Harry nor Murphy was born with the ability to use soulfire. However in Small Favor, Uriel gives Harry the ability to use soulfire, and that ability is permanent as far as we can see, so its now an integral part of Harry.

So when we are talking about Harry post-SF, soulfire is no longer some separate thing in my view. It is just as much a part of his powers as basic magic is. Much more dangerous part since it can kill him, but also one that can do more. I don't think it should be viewed as somekind of separate thing that comes from Uriel. Uriel was the origin yes, but now it comes from Harry himself.

And in Cold Days, he seems to have started to truly grasp what it means and how to use it. You might say that Harry has reached the kind of soulfire proficiency in book 14 that he had with magic in book 1.

 

You don't understand. They auto-counter your executions AND your counters.