I disagree. We know that Sarissa has said that Slate was not always the way he was and also that Harry compared the impulses of the WK mantle to that of a wolf (or some other predator); for that matter Thomas explicitly mentions it a couple of times. It's far more likely that since Winters purpose (and their power) is to guard against the Outside for all of eternity that their power and behavior tends to encourage fighting and the more base instincts to ensure that their are always more soldiers for the fight and so that they are always ready for (and looking forward to) the next fight (kinda hard to continue if they get tired after a century or two of it). Additionally, I find it very hard to believe that any mortal (even Harry) has the ability to have any kind of lasting impact on a mantle of that power (resist its influence yes, but that doesn't equate to influencing it).

Although, now that I think about it. We know that on Halloween the Immortals can add and lose power from their mantles. Can Harry and Fix add or lose power to the Mantles that they carry? I kind of doubt it as the power is a part of the Queens but it still makes me wonder a bit.

 

Implying that Maeve didn't choose Slate specifically for his criminal tendencies.

Implying that a trained wizard is no different from a heroin-addicted rapist.

Implying that Bob has never been wrong before about things.

Implying that Bob wasn't shown to be wrong yet again, because Lily still made decisions based on being Lily, not being the Summer Lady (who would not have trusted her counterpart on principle), and Harry was able to be Harry after staring into the Heart of Winter at the end. Because apparently the end of Ghost Story never happened.

Implying that Uriel doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about when he says Harry still has free will to choose to not be a pawn or be controlled by Winter.

 

Your sort of totally glossing over the point which is that if Mab had the slightest bit of interest in taking the Swords she could have done it at any point at all she wanted but she didnt.

How exactly does being a Changeling make her a bad example?

Already been discussed.

Right which is nice and everything except for the fact that Bob is a spirit of intellect whose entire purpose is knowing damn near everything about magic period and wouldn't charge Harry favors just for saying hello. Him being beyond needing Bob is ridiculous.

Potentially a wielder and not one now. She has more experience than a few individual Wardens and no magic at all to fall back on and Kincaid was putting down multiple Denarians with one bullet, beyond style points how does that make her better than even him much less any of the other groups who could do an infinitely better job than she ever could protecting them?

Except no because that would mean potentially hurting Ivy in some capacity and that wont happen, ever.

...why would he need to ask for his best friend and assistant back in the middle of a world ending crisis?

So what? Im not seeing any problems.

Errr no, Demonreach has no choice in the matter. Merlin created wards which would do it no matter what Demonreach decided.

@Iron Rose- Riiiight but if Murphy had any idea what she was talking about or how the Swords functioned she'd know that wasnt a concern. You know how the Swords can burn people they dont want touching them and all setting aside the whole iron vs. faeries thing. Long story short if it was about protection she could have done a thousand other things with them besides covertly swipe them and try and hide them on her own. There are truckloads of people she could have entrusted the blades to if all she wanted was to protect them and make sure Darkside Harry didnt get them.

As for Bob, theres a real simple solution if she just wanted to simply keep it from Harry. Give him to Eb and call him in, Harry isnt taking him from Eb if he Eb doesnt want him to and none of her blackmail would have been required.

 

Translation: I didn't pay attention during Grave Peril, or during any of the parts where the Denarians are dealing with the swords. Anyone can pick up and use the swords, or break them. That's totally a thing.

I think we need to discuss it some more. Like, a lot more. Remind me again why hiding it nearby Theoretical Winter Avatar Fallen Possessed Kimmler is a good idea? Remind me why hiding it in a vault only he can open is a good idea, again?

Which is exactly why he should not have him, Jesus Christ did you not see that rapeface Harry had at the end there.

I was not aware that being arbitrarily better than someone else was a requirement for attempting to thwart the motherfucking apocalypse.

The Archive is a respected neutral third party. There are, like, a zillion things Kincaid could sell the swords to, that would not affect Ivy at all.

Assuming his Tifling ass can even touch one without getting third-degree burns.

You're actually both wrong on this one. He did consider it, but then realized that Butters helping him makes him an Accomplice, aka Someone Somebody Might Want to Kill Or Possibly Seek Vengeance Upon. But if Harry broke in and stole Bob, then Butters is just a 'victim,' and nobody cares about victims.

That's why he broke in and tried to steal Bob. It's also why he briefly considered knocking Andi the fuck out. He just couldn't bring himself to do it.

With Harry giving in to the darkness? You don't see any problems with that? You don't see the danger inherent in motherflipping Winter Avatar Demon Possessed Kimmler?

I'll bet you think coconuts are horses, too.

You seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding Demonreach's character. By, like. A lot.

 

Translation: You completely missed where the first time Thomas touched one it nearly set him on fire and then when he had a good purpose it didnt.

I never said it was, if you'd stop yelling and read once in a while I said hiding them there was a bad idea that Murphy would have instantly skipped.

You really need to stop yelling and think things through for five seconds, if that was her goal then literally almost anyone would have been better than her to have the Swords.

Fine.

I dont see anything wrong with how Harry did it at all, Bob is his and he needed his help and didn't want to implicate Butters as a friend. He shouldn't need to ask to take back his single oldest friend in the entire world who he freely gave to Butters to watch over for a while.

Your a very angry person you know? I can't believe I of all people am having to say this but you really need to relax. I dont see any problems with Harry getting more aggressive. Assuming worst case scenario you have a point but since its based upon one theoretical scenario that hasn't happened and wont happen, no I dont.

You seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding the concept of a Ward.

Prisoners Escape= Wards Go Boom.

It isn't prisoners escape and Demonreach decides whether or not to do it.

 

Since I've already been called a Winter apologist, I might as well go whole-hog on it. She wanted to turn him into a dog to protect him from himself and all those nasties - Nicodemus, just to start - he's pissed off.

A very weakened Amoracchius, and one could make the argument that God allowed it to happen. As has already been stated, the Swords can and will burn the unworthy who touch them.

Being a changeling means nothing. Maeve was a changeling as well. So is, presumably, Mab, since at the end of Cold Days she does say that she was at one point human.

Because, I dunno, it's a fucking prison for some of the worst things to ever come out of The Outside? I mean, this is just me, but if the failsafe of Demonreach ever didn't kill something, God's Merry Men might want to have two out of three swords on hand for potential wielders, not being used to clean Murphy's chimney.

Covered by Krogran, but I'll throw in my two cents as well. Harry himself has stated that potions are, for lack of a better term, bottled magic. Granted, their shelf life is utter shit, but if he needs to throw up a veil or something while he's pressed for time and said veil needs to be used while moving? Yeah, he'll use a potion.

Actually, it was a Chlorofiend, which is somewhat not the former and definitely not the latter. I'll save you the google and say that it's basically an Ent.

Except his contract with Ivy specifically prohibits him from doing anything to harm her. Presumably, selling Bob or the swords to the highest bidder can and would lead to harm coming to her.

Excuse me for getting names fucked up. In other news, Emiya Shirou has never been pressed for time and needed something right the fuck now to save the world.

So, what you're saying is, being more capable to protect Winter is a bad thing? Being more capable to stop Outsiders is bad?

Cool story, bro. Except, you know, the part where blowing up a good chunk of North America is more than acceptable casualties to keep that particular brand of nasty from getting out.

Since we're being nitpicky faggots about names, it's spelled Kemmler.

Except that 'not magically educated' part. Who the fuck says she knows a damn thing about what being the Winter Knight means? About what having Bob means?

Luccio's been off Wardening, for one, so she's got some more experience with using that body under her belt.

You're forgetting about the entire Senior Council. Ebenezar by himself could lay the smackdown on Harry, let alone the other six of them.

This gay earth is the only one she has, so I doubt she'd be defending it as vehemently if she had somewhere to nope the fuck off to.

Except the part where God and all his Angels can't do jackshit to interfere. Uriel can drop hints, but we're led to believe that he's the black-ops guy anyway.

Pffffft.

Except for the part where Demonreach doesn't let anyone get in, and he obviously knows what's going down on his island. You can't mind-whammy a place. He knew that Nemesis was in Lily and Maeve's head, and the only reason he didn't swat both of them like flies was because Mab asked him to. What makes you think Demonreach would let him get anywhere near the tower? Not to mention the fact that Mab or the Sentient Mantle, take your pick, removes the mantle from him when he does things that are decidedly anti-Winter. Like, y'know, releasing Cthulhu.

Implying that that wasn't so that she could more easily control him.

Implying that a trained wizard can't also be a heroin-addicted rapist.

Implying that an angel can even talk about free will.

Implying that you can greentext on DLP.

 

Because a White Court vampire and a Sidhe are the exact same thing. No difference whatsoever.

YELLING ON THE INTERNET DOESN'T WORK LIKE HOW YOU THINK IT WORKS. I JUST THOUGHT I SHOULD LET YOU KNOW. IT'S KIND OF COMPLICATED, AND I WON'T BORE YOU WITH THE DETAILS, BUT THE SHIFT KEY IS INVOLVED. ALSO, WHILE WE'RE ON THE SUBJECT, CAPSLOCK IS FOR PUSSIES.

Or in other words, we're going to have more failure points and potential betrayals involved in this plan than is strictly necessary, solely because of some fucked up idea that only someone with impeccable moral pedigree can save the world, because that couldn't possibly backfire, and isn't the least bit totally and completely absurd.

Learn how to paranoia.

Stop whining about the problems you perceive in people who disagree with you, and answer the question. Why. Is it. A good. Idea.

"Because it won't happen."

Do you. . . is this actually your reason? You think it's a good idea, because Harry 'obviously' won't fail? That's your justification for it? Because the worst scenario could never possibly happen, so let's not worry about it?

Are you real?

She does, by not being stupid enough to give it to him.

Since we're being picky faggots about everything, it would take decades, if not centuries, to get herself back to the point where she can get oneshotted by an apprentice of the bad guys. Unless you think she's been training in Kami's Lookout or something, in which case good for you.

Who wouldn't know it was happening until it had already happened, because they don't know the proto-Archive is alive and don't know that Harry read the book?

Yeah, they'll totally factor in. I don't see how "let's play defensive for a decade and hope the vampires get bored of the bloodbath" could ever be slow on the uptake when it comes to Horrifically Bad Things.

If that was even remotely true, Summer wouldn't exist. Try again.

Because if I stick my fingers in my ears hard enough, Grave Peril and Death Masks never happened. That's a thing, right guys?

Because Demonreach totally didn't flat-out tell Harry that he could release any or all of the things in there if he wanted to. That's not a thing. No siree.

Implying that that wasn't the entire goddamn point, yes, congratulations.

Implying that this has anything to do with Harry's ability to resist the Mantle turning him.

Implying that Uriel doesn't know more about free will than you do, and that the plot of the last EVERY BOOK doesn't matter.

>Implying that just typing "implying" is how you generate greentext.

 

Which just goes to show how insane (by human standards) Lea actually is.

God is all about letting free will take its course, and its was Harry's choice that put the Swords in danger in the first place. God has no say in that part, unless he's willing to violate his own ideals.

Mab was a Changeling. Being a Changeling is the stage before being either fully Fae or fully Human. If you choose Fae you give up your free will and soul to become one of them. Up until that point Changelings still have a soul and still have free will.

So putting them on a magical island that is hostile to anything that hasn't bonded with it, that would be Ground Zero for an explosion apparently measured in gigatons is easy to access? Compared to being in a regular human (and potential wielder's) safekeeping? You've got a pretty warped view of easy to get to there, mate.

By Word of Jim they're also stopgaps for when a Wizard isn't skilled enough to do that kind of thing by himself. Useful, sure, but when you start getting into the big leagues like Harry is all those foci and miscellaneous nick-nacks become less and less necessary.

She attacked Grumm/Talos with it as well, taking him in the back of the leg while he was distracted.

That's the thing. He's only loyal so long as he is under contract, and while he may have compunctions against harming Ivy directly, he is still a mercenary and has proven those tendencies over and over again. If he thought it beneficial to him to sell the Swords to someone (What's the worst they can do? Destroy them? How would that harm Ivy?) I could see him doing so in a heartbeat.

Calm down, dude. This is a discussion, we discuss points.

It is if by protecting Winter you mean conquering the world and by stopping Outsiders you mean becoming a necrogod to gain power. Mab's priorities don't really venture into the human morality compass much.

If the prison gets breached the wards go off. That doesn't kill them though. That was part of the reason Harry had to stop it happening, because everything in the prison is Immortal. It's even mentioned in the text that while it would destroy the physical forms of the monsters they would eventually reform and go on their own mini-rampages.

She knows that Harry's boner was pressing into her back as they led the Wild Hunt against the Outsiders. She's one of Harry's oldest friends and she can see the effect the Mantle is having on him. You don't need magical knowledge to know when someone is being mindfucked.

She also got infected by Nemesis and is thus compromised as a potential keeper.

Sure, now. If Harry performed the Darkhallow, however...

I'm with you on this one, but then again, Mab's number one priority is fighting the Outsiders and it affects everything she does. If Mab could get away with conquering the world in order to enslave and conscript every living thing on it, she would. That's part of the reason Summer exists in the first place.

Mhm.

Winter is not nice. Winter has its purpose, but its purpose is to be the baddest motherfuckers this side of the Outer Gates.

Mab has already shown that she isn't all knowing. Hell, her previous Knight did exactly what you're talking about and she didn't know until Harry worked it out and told her.

True.

True.

Well, yes they can. They're the messenges of the Creator of the Universe (or so we're led to believe at this point). That makes them very qualified.

Lol.

 

I never said she was as skilled as she was in Tyrannosaurus: The Return.

Except Harry isn't exactly subtle, and even the White Council would notice someone powering up a ritual that big.

I... what? What does that even have to do with anything? Are you trying to tell me that Winter is more powerful than Summer? And here I thought the power was balanced between them, with each one being only somewhat stronger than the other in the respective seasons.

And the wards would subsequently incinerate everything, including Harry and a large chunk of North America. An explosion that big would get "the defendists" off their ass to go find out what happened, too, which you'd have to be an idiot to not realize was kind of the point of an explosion that large.

Oooh, goody, sarcasm.

Look, mah, I can strawman too! Also, the entire point of that particular segment was that it was a logical fallacy. That thing that you said keeps Murphy from giving Harry the swords and/or Bob?

An Angel knows more about free will than one of the beings it was specifically given to. Welp, I stand corrected.

See the comment about strawmanning. Also, to use your own comment against you, what the fuck does this have to do with The Dresden Files?

I'll concede this point somewhat, but point you to Krogan's comments about Thomas and the sword.

Since when do Fae not have free will? A few pages back, wasn't there specifically a discussion about how Mab could wall off Nemesis if the subject was willing?

Demonreach would no longer exist once the island blew up. I'm not sure about just how resilient the swords are, but until someone snaps the blade over their knee, I'll work with the assumption that they'd survive the explosion. Also, I'm fairly certain that material objects don't fall under the purview of Demonreach's hostility.

How long would it take them to reconstitute, though? The whole entire idea behind blowing the island in the first place is so that a bunch of wizards could work on figuring out a way to banish them back to The Outside.

Being affected by the Mantle and being mindfucked are two very different things.

To an extent. I'd go so far as making a comparison to explaining art to a blind person, in that you cannot truly know about something without experiencing it.

 

The White Council wouldn't have noticed in the first place if Harry wasn't one of them, and even he would have been too late if Mavra hadn't given him a heads up first.

Err, yes. Yes they are. It's just that most of Mab's forces are off fighting the Outsiders. Summer only has about 50,000 troops to its name, which is about the amount Mab keeps as her border guard. Go re-read the scene where Harry first sees the Outer Gates.

At which point it would be too late.

Most of humanity is uncertain whether free will actually exists. Angels were around when it was created.

---------- Post automerged at 04:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:24 AM ----------

Thomas has a soul, thus he has free will.

That's not free will. Free will is the ability to act contrary to your nature. Faeries do not have the ability to act against their nature (without Outsider meddling) so they do not have free will.

However, this does not mean they don't have will. The ability to make decisions according to their nature. It's not like beings without free will are clones or something, they all have personalities that are distinct and unique, but they're still constrained by the inability to lie and the likes.

Jim's example was that Mab could not one day get up and be nice and jovial and kind. It's just not in her nature and would be physically impossible for her to do so without Nemesis affecting her.

The Swords would likely survive, but they'd still be in a wasteland so vast it would be equivalent to a meteorite impact and would likely kill the majority of life on the North American continent because of dirt and ash being thrown into the air.

We're talking Extinction Level Event kind of power here.

Aside from the fact that not all of the creatures in there (maybe even none of them, we don't know) are from the Outside? It could be weeks, could be years, could be centuries, but in the end does it really matter how long it takes? That's still throwing thousands of beings that are at the weakest as powerful as Harry Dresden wielding soulfire. In the long game it would still be a death sentence.

Not really. They both force (or attempt to force) a being into acting a certain way, which is what enthrallment is.

It's say the Angels were more equivalent to art critics than blind men. They may not be able to paint by themselves, but they're knowledgeable enough to see the intricacies that most people miss.

 

Completely missed the point, both of you. What I said was that if Mab had somewhere else she could go to and actually could say "fuck this gay earth", she would have already done it by now. The Nevernever may be Faerie in nature, but it's also tied to mortals, and by extension, Earth. No more mortals, no more Nevernever. I'll point you to the off-hand comment Dresden makes in one of the books (I want to say Summer Knight) about how if enough people believe in something, it's created in The Nevernever.

Missed the point here as well. The point was that when Thomas just picked it up to swing it around, the thing almost set him on fire. When he actually had a righteous purpose to it (in this case, defending Harry) the sword allowed him to do so.

Isn't there some form of limited Intellectus related to the swords, where the bearers know where to be when they're needed? I would assume that that would extend to bearers getting their hands on the swords as well.

While they are disconnected from the world, wizards are anything but ignorant of it. The same could be said of a nuclear warhead going off, and you think they don't have contingency plans for such things? Also, we don't know. For all we know, each Merlin knows about the location of Demonreach in case something like that does happen.

The ones that aren't immortal would no longer be an issue. The ones that are immortal, on the other hand, would be the ones to work on that banishing ritual for.

 

Nothing I said implied any of that. It is entirely possible (hell, likely considering Maeve) that Slate was a horrific person prior to being given the mantle, that doesn't change the fact that we know it had an impact on him based on others peoples statements (none of those people had any reason to mislead Harry either).

We know it had an impact on Harry due to both his actions, thoughts and other peoples statements concerning him. Everyone from Murphy to Mother Summer said that; either it is impacting or will have an impact on him. It is also stated that he can resist its influence but that very few have managed to do so. How you got from what I actually said to me saying that Harry is the same as a rabid heroin addict is so far beyond illogic that I can't even begin to fathom the through process.

Nowhere in my post did I mention Bob.

Again, I never said anything about Harry resisting the mantles influence ... just that Slate had no influence on the WK mantle.

Again I never said anything about Uriel being wrong. (Do we see the pattern here?)

I'd call that post a strawman ... but it really isn't as your comments are barely even tangentially related.

 

Harry can not-tell anyone he's going to do a Darkhallow. Congratulations, he can now successfully do it without anyone being able to stop him.

They didn't notice it in Dead Beat, and that was with two psychotic necromancers charging around with freaking undead armies and one of them sabotaging a major international hub. One guy sitting in a shed with some candles isn't going to trigger any alarms, and even if it did, they wouldn't go off in time.

. . . did you even read this book? I even complained about this.

Wrong. The wards trigger when the prison fails, not when something is let out by the Warden.

Not nearly as well, though.

Yes, you do. And you wouldn't have needed to be corrected if you paid attention to Ghost Story. Or Changes before that. Or literally any scene where Uriel shows up, because it's pretty much all he ever talks about.

See the part where you missed the point. And since you apparently aren't getting that point ("what's that? Winter is stronger than Summer? PHOEY AND PISHAW"), I'll spell it out for you.

"But it says that Slate didn't used to be the way he was! The Mantle changed him!"

"According to Bob and another Sidhe, yes. But, for one, Bob has been wrong before, and for another, it was clearly stated by Uriel that the choice on whether or not to succumb to Winter is still yours. And this panned out at the end of Cold Days, where Harry resisted it. Also, Lloyd Slate was already an evil bastard to begin with. He was a rapist, murderer, and heroin addict."

"Ha, but a wizard can be addicted to heroin and rape people too!"

"What the fuck does that have to do with anything?"

"STRAWMAN!"

Not really. And I'm not going to quote the entire last few chapters of Cold Days to prove otherwise. Just go reread it.

 

I'm genuinely confused. The last part of your post seems to be directed at me again ... but again it has so little to do with any position that I've taken that I'm really not sure.

I'd suggest that you go and read the comment (y'know actually understand the words and all that) that I originally responded to. It said that "Slate permanently impacted the Mantle". That is what I disagreed with. At this point I'm not even sure WTF you're talking about to disagree with as everything is nonsensical ranting.

 

Getting points mixed up here, I guess. I did still refute the point that the power between Summer and Winter was equal though. Winter has a huge advantage in troops and such over Summer, it's just that she'd have to 'say "fuck this gay earth"' and give up the Outer Gates to use them.

True, but it's still debatable whether Lea is capable of doing so. She's a Winter Sidhe, while Thomas is a White Court Vampire. Thomas has a soul, so as far as the Swords are concerned he's capable of being a wielder (and I've suggested as much myself, given that Raphael seems to be grooming him for Knighthood). Lea does not have a soul so it's arguable that she's incapable of even holding the Swords before they've been 'broken'. Her essential nature may conflict with it, which is suggested as such by the way it would have burned her.

Could do, but if there are no bearers (as there aren't right now) or the bearers were killed in the explosion? It's not inconceivable that such a thing might happen, given that all the potential wielders we've seen so far live in Chicago.

More than likely they do, but Demonreach was literally minutes from exploding during Cold Days and the White Council still didn't show up. Overall the Council really doesn't have a good track record on being on time for these things, and even when they are it's only because of Harry.

I'd have thought that the only things requiring locking up in Demonreach would be Immortal, given that with enough power you'd be able to kill the rest. As for a banishing ritual... How? It would pretty much have to be done for each Immortal being, requiring a link to every single one of what are implied to be hideously powerful beings that fall way above the Council's weight class. That means hair, blood or Name from thousands of different creatures. I'm not seeing how it could be done with the ease you're implying.

Even then that's assuming you'd want to risk letting the Outsiders in while you're kicking the prisoners out. The Outer Gates are a physical thing too, so I'm not sure a banishing ritual like you're implying could work.

 

It was directed at me, Raine is getting lazy with quotes.

Like I said, he's not subtle. People would notice him charging up something like that, since he doesn't know the meaning of using small amounts of his power. I'm saying that he wouldn't charge it over time, he'd do it all at once.

Those two necromancers prepared for that for quite a while beforehand. If Harry decided to do the Darkhallow, sans preperation, he'd take off and just do it in a shed. If he wanted to prepare beforehand, he'd need to find something like, I don't know, a warehouse, to do it in, as well as figure out a way to get in and out without being noticed. Before you say he could open a Way to get in and out, the Nevernever is a shifting entity, and we're flat-out told that opening an exit even a foot away from where you did before could drop you in the middle of Antarctica instead of, to borrow your example, Tokyo.

Troops that are currently engaged in combat =/= troops that can disengage from combat on a whim and go take over the Summer Court. Especially when the combat they're in is with an unending army of Outsiders trying to break in.

Is it difficult, being as clever as you are?

I like how you make yourself out to be the rational one, here, when for every single one of your replies I've seen, you've either been toeing the line of outright attacking the person you're debating against, or doing it altogether.

And thus give up earth altogether, because we're led to believe that if she weren't defending the Outer Gates, the Outsiders would swarm like so many zerglings and pretty much kill everything.

Operative term here is "we've seen so far". Shiro was Asian, and presumably didn't move to America until after he was Chosen. Unless he always lived in 'Murica, in which case, I stand corrected. What I'm driving at, is that theoretically, anyone could be a bearer, there are just some people who are either better suited to it than others or, possibly, it's like Prophethood in Supernatural, where it's predetermined.

Because they're a group very entrenched in the whole proceedings thing. They probably have to convene a meeting just to get it straight on what they were doing.

To start, I could've sworn that Harry saw a Shagnasty or something along those lines that he's killed in the past. Furthermore, I never said that the ritual would be anything even close to easy, what I said was that a bunch of wizards could work together and get it done. Wizards live longer than humans, we know for a fact, so they have the advantage of a longer length of time than if, say, Murphy was the one running the show.

Does Rashid need to be at the gates for them to be considered defended? I was under the impression that Gatekeeper was an office, like Blackstaff or Merlin. In order to involve Rashid, who is arguably the one guy on the council who knows the most about Outsiders, they could temporarily have Ramirez or Random Wizard XYZ take over at the Gates, since I can only assume that a wizard holds the office for one reason or another.

 

If you're going to do the Darkhallow you're going to do it properly. There would be signs, sure, but the question is whether the Council (or anyone else) would act on them quickly enough to do anything about it. If Harry got the vortex up and running I'm not sure anyone would be able to stop him.

Well, the world is a big place, you could do the Darkhallow pretty much anywhere and still come off more powerful than before, but for a quality rite you'd want to do it in as packed an area as possible. As for getting in, that would be fairly easy for Harry since he has his mother's notes on the Ways. Getting out would be... less of a problem for a necrogod.

Agreed. Can we all calm the fuck down for a moment and debate this like rational people?

Badass motherfucker that she is, I agree.

It's heavily implied you have to be descended from a monarch to be a Knight, but that criteria stretches so far as to include pretty much the entire human race. Still, doesn't change the fact that they'd have to venture into a seriously hostile environment. Likely as not it would take months to cool down enough to get near the Swords without dying.

Mhm. White Council not so good at keeping track of big bad happenings.

Ah, yeah. Morgan nuked one, iirc. Don't know if he actually killed it or if it just lost its body for a few decades though. Wouldn't it be ironic if Shagnasty was the same Naagloshi that Morgan nuked? It would give it a personal interest in the matter, though I expect it would have mentioned as much if it had ever met Morgan.

I'd assume so, given that the Gates are effectively a giant CAT Scan device, and even with Rashid at the helm they're still not 100% foolproof. Seems to me he's the only person who can operate them at their best, which is what you need when dealing with Outsiders.

 

That's the question. The Wardens exist for a reason, though, so I'd assume that they'd send some Wardens in to recon the situation, and once they realized that Harry motherfucking Dresden was setting up a ritual in Tokyo, of all places, that'd send up some red flags.

Agreed, but with the caveat that Harry would have to leave and go back all the time. Someone like him would be missed if he was gone for an extended period of time. We know he's spent days in his apartment without leaving, but anyone who would care to know where he was has access to both of the places he's living at (Mab, in the case of Arctis Tor, and Mab, Thomas, and Murphy in the case of the Water Beetle)

Indeed, but this brings up the question of whether or not a Knight of the Cross can also be a wizard. If they can, said wizard could just use some wind magic and summon it to them while being on the outskirts of the place, or just set up some sort of air filtration spell and go get it themselves.

It would be ironic, and like I said, we don't know. As I recall, he opened a Way to the Sun and sent the Naagloshi on its merry way.

This is true. Perhaps they could set up a reliable Way to the Gates, then? Sort of like how Dresden knows of that reliable Way to Edinburgh when he's summoned to Council meetings.

 

True. It'd all come down to the situation at the time, at that point.

Well, he does have his mother's notes and she was well known for being able to travel to different cities across the globe in a single day. It wouldn't be too hard for Harry to do the same, should he want to, which could help him hide such a large rite.

Or they could take allies. I'm still leery of saying it's possible though, given the frankly massive amounts of energy that would be hanging around as heat.

Nah. He lured it onto the Trinity Test Site then stepped through into the Nevernever as the bomb went off.

Rashid all but admitted that he knows the Nevernever as well (or better) than Margaret did, so that wouldn't really be an issue. He's been shown to create portals in the same way Odin did at Changes too: one point to the next without travelling the Nevernever in between. It's just that Rashid doesn't seem to leave the Outer Gates for any extended period of time. Every time we've seen him it has been at a critical point and then he's disappeared ten minutes later. Not exactly good for a ritual, I think.

Hmm, at this point we're getting away from arguing mechanics so it's pretty pointless continuing on from here. It'd just turn into another muggles vs. wizards debate, Dresden Style.

 

I'd just like to point out there's no big loading bar in the sky for the Darkhallow. Cowl and the rest making things a little Spooky on Halloween was the only visible 'prep' done and that's left ambiguous as to whether its needed for a Darkhallow or for a BIG Darkhallow.