There are other means of detection. Rashid has some form of specialised futuresight, all Wizards develop a little precognition, black magic leaves a stain. All of these leave little hints that black magic is being used, and there are very likely more methods of searching. Sure, they're small hints in the grand scheme of things, but eventually they'd add up. It would be difficult, but the Darkhallow is a Big Ritual and it was fairly obvious to anyone who knew the signs that something big was going down.

Aside from that there's the fact that there are Wizards all over the damn place, and lesser practitioners even more so. The Paranet especially is good for detecting things like this, though given the knowledge hoarding of Wizards they'd probably not know what they were looking at.

 

On the subject of the Darkhallow, people are forgetting several things.

1) In Deadbeat, the Necromancers had the entire Red Court running interference specifically for the purpose of keeping the White Council from getting involved and wrecking their shit which would, presumably, mean that the White Council would otherwise have gotten involved and wrecked their shit.

2) The White Council has at least one member on it capable of seeing the future and more then a few specializing in information gathering, and the Darkhallow does, in fact, need some necromantic prep to work, as well as requiring a location where the border between worlds is thin.

3) None of this matters, because of the most important issue, which is the same issue his threat in Changes was meaningless even before the revelation that it could only happen on Halloween.

The Erlking.

The Darkhallow requires the Erlking's involvement. As in, Harry would need to summon him up and have him call a hunt while he was right their in the city with the guy. Harry, who the Erlking might hates and definitely wants to hunt. And Harry would need to summon him up. To get his aid in a ritual that would make Harry an Immortal with power dwarfing the Erlking's.

Why the fuck would he ever do that?

Harry could never successfully perform the Darkhallow, by virtue of one simple fact. Sometimes the toes you step on today are connected to an ass you have to kiss tomorrow.

(Also, the Grey Council, which has Odin as a member. And he can see the future. And just, like, tell someone and send them to stop Harry. It wouldn't be hard; all they have to do is roughly push him in the middle of the Darkhallow like he did to Cowl.)

(Which isn't to say Murphy wasn't completely justified, even so. Cause she was.)

 

I get why Murphy doesn't return Bob and the swords to Harry but what I don't understand is why Murphy, if she is not infected by Nemesis, didn't use "her" sword in this mess, or even pick it up in side jobs. It really seems to be a petty thing to do and not really in character with Murphy's sense of duty to the people of Chicago, whom she wants to protect. Her own ideals, that she wants to do this on her own and independently, should take a backseat when stuff like "the continent may explode" goes down. A sword would have been an immense help.

The excuse "the swords don't want to be there" or "he works in mysterious ways" is a rather convenient and bullshitty type of excuse. It may very well be true, of course. That's why it is so convenient. But at the same time, it is the easiest excuse in the world, one everyone here might believe since God is a thing in the Dresden verse.

Coupled with her really suspicious behavior, as pointed out by some here in this thread, like her way too nonchalant acceptance of Harry's return, how she treated him at times, being too giddy and too friendly (not the refusal of Bob and the swords, that was actually where she was at her most consistent behavior) and I can believe that Nemesis may have started to influence Murphy. Probably no full blown control, maybe the swords in her close vicinity give her some protection or some other reason since we don't actually know Nemesis all that well, but Murphy definitely acted out of character this book and we know that there is a big bad that can influence onces behavior so, it is possible.

Of course, her suspicious behavior may have other explanations as well. Like, Murphy knew all along that Harry would come back, maybe also from Lea (or another supernatural contact which could spell trouble) or she deduced it by observing and keeping tabs on Molly (her buying stuff for harry might have tipped her off that he was definitely coming back) but it would fit with Harry's shitty luck that someone he cares about would get into such a bad situation (another dilemma for him as well).

So, Murphy might be one of Nemesis' many contingency plans. As to why it "allowed" Murphy to shoot Maeve, it might be a) because it doesn't fully control her like that and b) it might have thought the situation already lost. If Murphy didn't kill Maeve, I am certain Molly would have, who was in the perfect position to shank Maeve as well, being invisible and behind her and all. It seems to be a patient entity and thus wouldn't really mind the delay, seeing that Nemesis is still in an advantageous position, seeing that Summer and Winter got severely weakened. Besides, it got its fangs (maybe) in one of Harry's most important people.

 

Is the Erlking necessary for a Darkhallow?

It seems to me that the key part of the Darkhallow is the technique for sucking in all the spirits around you. All the rest - the thin barrier between worlds, the presence of the wild hunt - was particular to the Darkhallow in Dead Beat, and was an attempt to maximise the number of spirits present (and thus the amount of power to draw in). If there was another way to make sure there were loads of spirits around you, the Erlking would not be necessary.

 

Agreed. I'd theorise that the reason the Wild Hunt was needed in Chicago is, well, because it was in Chicago. European settlers may not have been the first to live there, but they were the first to establish cities. Compared to a place like Tokyo, which has seen more people die in it than some small countries, there must be a minuscule amount of spirits in Chicago to draw upon. Even then the Japanese spirits would be thousands of years old, rather than the hundreds-thousand year old Cahokian ones.

 

No, it was stated the Erlking was necessary. You need the Erlking to raise a bunch of ghost--more then any mortal practitioner could pull up--which you then comsume. The more you take down, the bigger the funnel grows and the wider the radius of humans that get sucked in with it.

You need the Erlking (Jim confirmed it) to get around that, and he's the best guy for it because he used the same method to ascend.

It's not really the amount of spirits, it's getting them there in the first place. Remember that older spirits are harder to draw up. Even with a bunch of artifacts that specifically belonged to the guys who'd died, one of the heirs of Kemmler, with decades and decades of experience with Necromancy, ideal conditions for it, and more power and experience at magic then Harry by far was able to call up a few dozen century old ghosts. Harry managed to call up Sue, granted, but 1) he had a Ley Line, 2) it was Halloween, 3) again, ideal conditions, 4) animals are much easier to call up then people, 5) he had her bones right there, and so on.

Could Harry go to Tokyo and call up a few guys from the Jomon period? Sure, probably one or two. If he breaks into a bunch of museums for their ancient relics and summons them up with rituals--which really wouldn't accomplish anything but calling down the White Council to murder you.

If you want ancient ghosts, you can find places where people lived long ago easily enough. If you want numbers, Hitler and Stalin left those in spades. You just can't, you know, call up anywhere remotely close to enough guys to matter on your own.

Also, remember that the Darkhallow does need some prep, because you have to make sure the boundary between worlds is flimsy.

And, again, at least two of the people who'd want to stop you can see the future.

 

The flimsy barrier was for the purpose of older and/or weaker ghosts to make an appearance.

Also humans aren't consumed by the Darkhallow, they're killed by the backlash.

 

They're also killed in the backlash.

Word of Jim, just like needing the Erlking.

 

I think you're stretching the Word of Jim here. He says you need the Erlking to call up the number of spirits for a decent Darkhallow, yes, but hey, how about this: pop over to Arctis Tor and pull off the Darkhallow there instead. No shortage of spirits.

 

There'd be a distinct lack of souls, though. And a somewhat irritated Queen of Air and Darkness who would probably smite you with a look for trying.

 

Mab would freeze Harry's loins off if he tried something like that.

 

Hahaha, no.

Keep in mind several things.

One, the Darkhallow is a necromantic spell--it functions using Ghosts and the dead. You can't just sub anything in there and expect it to work.

Two, there aren't actually any spirits around Arctis Tor--they're Fae. It's not the same thing. In fact, I'm willing to bet there are no Ghosts around Arctis Tor whatsoever, because Mab wouldn't want them around.

Three, even in the areas of the Nevernever where there are Ghosts, there generally aren't a lot of Ghosts, because they hang out in their own areas. Agatha's part was clear for miles of anyone but her, for example, and even the ones without a demesne probably don't hang out in the same areas of the Nevernever. Most Ghosts hang out on Earth, places where they feel attached to, like cities, houses, graves, etc. This is why Cowl didn't grab Bob and hop over.

Four, the Darkhallow isn't an instant process. It literally took, like, an hour for Cowl to get everything up and running, even after a week of prep and having gotten to the right location.

Five, if Harry tried that anywhere in the Nevernever it would work, much less anywhere near Arctis Tor, an untold number of beings would come around to tear down his shit. Doing it near Arctis Tor just means he'd get the Lloyd Slate treatment first.

 

That WoJ directly contradicts what's in the books, where it's explicitly stated that people would only die in the backlash because of the "spiritual vacuum" that the Darkhallow would create. You don't need people around, just a bunch of ghosts. That said, places where there are a lot of ghosts tend to have a lot of people, too.

 

The Wild Hunt does not consist of ghosts, it's made up of fae and transformed humans.

 

I think you misunderstand what Word of God means. Also, it was a clarification on why Cowl didn't fuck off and do his ritual somewhere more subtle.

(Also, what vacuum means, because yes, it made a spiritual vacuum...to suck people in and consume their power.)

Someone needs to reread DB. It also consists of humans and fae, because part of the hunt is that you join, hide, or die. Not the 'join' part.

But if you look at when Harry speaks to Mab and Dead Beat, as well as at the Word of Jim, you've note that it says:

 

Because it's not her sword. Because she may not realize that an offer was made. Because she was already mindjacked against her will once before, tramuatically, and probably doesn't appreciate Michael having done it to her, no matter how useful it was at the time. Because Murphy has changed just as much as Harry has, and the offer might not still be standing anymore.

Lots of reasons, potentially.

The Darkhallow requires spirits. And possibly Halloween, given what we just learned. The Erlking is merely the most convenient and immediate way to get a lot of them.

Because he's got no choice. It's not like you're asking politely when you summon something. That's why you put a circle up if you aren't totally sure whatever it is you're calling is going to like the fact that they were Called. If they don't, it's your ass.

If the Erlking is summoned, he has no choice but to appear. The same goes for Mab, Titania, demons, whatever. As long as you have their Name, or one of their names, you can attempt to call them.

And hunter spirits. And the mantles that they all wear during the Hunt. Those are the parts that matter, I'm pretty sure. The actual humans in the hunt wouldn't be consumed. They would just have their mantles sucked off, and then die a moment later in the backlash.

Anything that is a spirit is consumed. Since a lot of things apparently fall under the phrasing of 'spirit,' that's a pretty broad category. All ghosts, wandering spirits, loose souls knocking around, just about everything from the Nevernever. This does not include humans, that much was made clear. It might include Red Court vampires, because they are half from the mortal world, half from the Nevernever.

None of which says that the Erlking is actually necessary. He's just an accessory to get at the 'spirits most potent.'

 

But you need a lot of spirits. You can tear apart small amounts of ghosts and eat them without the Darkhallow--and it makes you boss if you do it enough, but not enough to actually stop the White Council from murdering you. See: Kemmler.

Yeah. They have to come. They don't have to do what you say and your circle will last at most until Dawn. At which point you fucked, even if not immediately.

The problem with Harry summoning the Erlking isn't the summoning part--we know he can do that. It's the 'And then...' part.

Random things from the Nevernever don't fall under it, actually. Just Ghosts and their many 'species.'

But you need lots of potent spirits (and then the living people who die afterwards) or its not a Darkhallow. Tearing apart and eating Ghosts for power is something you can do without that.

 

Okay, I think we're getting into semantics now. I think we can agree on everything substantive here:

1. It's possible to "eat" ghosts and absorb their power.
2. It's also possible to "eat" and absorb the power of other beings like fae in the same process.
3. This can either be done on a small scale (individuals) or a large scale (hundreds, if not thousands of beings).
4. The circumstances to bring about such a large scale power dinner are rare.
5. The Erkling is one way to bring about these circumstances.

Now, the only isssue we're still talking about is what combination of these factors should be called a Darkhallow.

Ryuugi says only when you're eating primarily ghosts (though other beings, with powers up to and including beings of Mab's stature, may become trapped during the process and get eaten too, boosting the effect significantly) summuned through the presence of the Erkling.

To be honest, the semantic issue doesn't concern me much at all. Call it what you want - the point is that it's possible to perform a rite like Ryuugi's Darkhallow, with almost identical mechanics and results, without the Erlking. That's the substantive issue being discussed, isn't it?

 

Proof that Darkhallow does this? Does it say this anywhere in the book. I know Butcher mentioned Erlking In a WoG, but all he said was that Erlking himself got his power in a similar way and that he was necessary to summon the powerfull spirits, not that Erlking would actually be eaten by the ritual personally.

 

Well, I'm pretty sure it doesn't say anywhere "the Erlking will be eaten" but at the same time, it doesn't make an exception of him. Like, there's nothing saying "when we said the Darkhallow eats the Wild Hunt, we actually only meant a part of the Wild Hunt".

It does make sense, however. The Darkhallow takes place on the one day of the year where it's possible to kill immortals.