It does not say anything of the sort and it seems extremely unlikely to me, as if it did, why would he involve himself at all? And why wouldn't he just run right up to the Necromancers and murder them all once he figured it out? It's not like they had anything that would keep him out--he even had Ghosts with him.

It was stated nowhere in the books and nowhere in WoJ and it make no logical sense.

 

It does make some sort of sense, considering what we know of Immortal power-play during Halloween. Maybe the Darkhallow doesn't do it, but it shouldn't be impossible to modify it so that it does.

 

Not really sure how that's supposed to follow. Ghosts are pretty enormously different from everything else we've seen, as illustrated in Ghost Story. It seems a pretty big leap to say that the same ritual--a Necromantic ritual--would work on something else. If you change all the parts of an equation but the answer, generally the answer ends up being wrong.

 

Ok, look: you can eat ghosts without a Darkhallow. Right? It's just faster to do it that way. Similarly, during Halloween, Immortals play "games" in which the winner leaves with a little more power than before. It's also possible to kill them during Halloween. It's really not a stretch to say that it's possible to absorb power from more than just ghosts during Halloween. As to whether you can adapt the Darkhallow to that purpose... well, it's magic. I've heard it's pretty flexible.

 

It's actually not. DF magic is held in check by a lot of rules and restrictions. It's a science. You can't expect an--again, Necromantic and designed to be used with Ghosts by the expert on such matters--to be functional with things besides Ghosts. Especially since Ghosts work under extremely different principles.

(Also, it's not that Immortals can steal power from each other on Halloween--it's that they can't steal power any other time (except the Queens, cause they have the Stone Table).)

 

I wouldn't say as a mortal starting the Darkhallow you could kill/absorb an Immortal's power. But once you eat all the ghosts, ascend and the 'oh god Nature's screaming' backlash wave goes out.. well I could see that killing some very heavy weight creatures. And you being in a position to do something about all that unclaimed power.

 

Its a necromantic ritual that is specifically claimed by Mab to rend down and consume ghosts. I don't really see why an exception for Erlking would have to be placed, when the Erlking is not a ghost at all. The Wild Hunt brings up a lot of critters. We know Thomas took part so vampires. We know Odin occasionally joins in. We know humans play wolves. And so on. Ghosts do indeed form only a part of the Wild Hunt, and it is only that part that is eaten. To specify that the non-ghosts will not be eaten is just unneccessary, after you have already said that only ghosts are eaten.

Halloween is apparently required for any change in immortal status, including becoming one. So according to Bob in the latest book, if you perform the Darkhallow on any other date, it either fails completely or just kills you, but it will only make you a god on halloween.

Now, as others have said, there would be nothing in the rules of Dresdenverse magic to prevent a ritual that consumed the power of a sidhe such as Erlking, but there is zero proof that darkhallow does this by default. Given the engineering style of magic in Dresdenvese, if is likely you would either have to modify the darkhallow, or create an entirely new ritual to kill immortals. The default one is designed for ghosts, and there is no reason to assume it will eat anything else unless told to. And presumably Mab would have mentioned it if a "peer" of hers (Erlking) would be consumed. And yet she only talks about ghosts.

There is also the problem of actually killing the immortals, since if it was so easy to create a rite to kill the likes of Erlkin or Odin and eat their power, presumably some god would already have done so rather than continuing the routine of trying to steal power on halloween directly, which is what they do according to Bob. Most likely any ritual would have a power requirement in it, so if you want to eat Odin, you have to be stronger than Odin.

Possibly, if the wave actually kills immortals, we don't know. And assuming that the power actually sticks around rather than just vanishing somewhere. For example, we saw that when the Ladies were killed in the last book, the mantle only remained present for a short time before leaving for the nearest compatible body. I could see the power of an immortal such as Erlking working the same way, so you might not have time to get his power, since said power would not remain unclaimed for long.

 

As a side note, it'd be fairly interesting if Thomas or that FBI bloke ended up with the Erlking's mantle. Then again, we've already seen a bunch of mantles being changed around at this point, so maybe it'd just be retreading old ground.

 

If the Darkhallow was just "consume ghosts," then Harry has already performed a Darkhallow on himself.

Also, the Darkhallow consumes spirits, not ghosts. That's an extremely important distinction, because the Erlking is a spirit of the hunt, as are all those that he leads. Spirits is a much broader term, and encompasses things like the Erlking, who is a Sidhe, and Bob, who was never alive to begin with and is nothing more than a lump of sentient knowledge. It's never said that the Erlking would be eaten, but it never said he wouldn't be, either, and I'm almost positive that it was mentioned that Bob would have been, which is why the move he pulled at the end with Sue was so risky.

Given what we now know, I'm almost certain the Kimmler knew the same secret that Bob did. Why else would he instruct that it be done on Halloween? Why else would the ritual specifically be said to "turn someone into a god?" The Darkhallow was a become-an-immortal ritual before we even fully understood what being an immortal entailed.

 

...Nooooo.

As was covered previously, the difference between the Darkhallow and what Harry did to the Nightmare and Kemm did to a bunch of people is that the Darkhallow sucks in a huge number of Ghosts to the point that it creates a vacuum that also sucks in the life energy of a lot of people and makes you a badass. It can also suck in things like Bob--but only because he has no form of physical presence, which is an extremely rare state of being that can be pretty easily circumvented, like Bob did. Within his skull or while possessing something with or without it's consent, he's fine as would be just about anything else. It wouldn't work on Fae at all, because they have physical bodies to begin with, and wouldn't work on anything else worth a damn because they can adopt bodies trivially or make their own. Bob can't do the later, so he had to do the former. Even just a physically solid ectoplasmic body is enough, going by the other Necromancers and their minions.

This is also why you can't do it in the Nevernever. Almost everything has a physical presence there.

 

I'm getting tired of this argument (I'm probably half-wrong anyways) but this is wrong, again. It was explicitly stated in the books that people were killed by the backlash of the spiritual vacuum sucking in life force after the ritual was completed. You don't eat that life force.

 

Word of Jim. Seriously, I'm pretty sure it even got quoted. And Jim has flat out stated WoJ to be canonical.

 

Almost right. Ectoplasm isn't a defence against the Darkhallow because it's basically just an extension of the creature's will. Ghosts and zombies are basically spirits housed in an ectoplasmic body, and they're sucked in by the Darkhallow as well (it's kinda the entire point of it).

You've got it the wrong way round there, but there's a bigger misunderstanding. Ghosts are a type of spirit, but not all spirits are ghosts. Only some types of spirit are vulnerable to the Darkhallow; mostly those that don't have a 'real' body to hide in (in which case they're just killed by the backlash). As well as that, the Erlking is a Spirit of the Hunt because he holds the mantle of a Hunter Spirit. Anyone can hold a mantle and wield its power, but holding the mantle doesn't change their fundamental nature. The Erlking is first and foremost a Faerie, then he is a Hunter Spirit.

If Thomas, for instance, were to take up the Erlking's mantle he would become a Hunter Spirit too, but underneath that he would still be a White Court Vampire. It's... like the mantle of the Hunt that Harry and Murphy wore against the Outsiders. Sure, they wielded some of the Wild Hunt's power and they were cloaked by it easily enough, but that didn't change their biological make-up under it all. They were still human, which is the important thing.

Almost certainly. I get the feeling it's one of those secrets that is not as well kept as beings like Mab would like. I wouldn't be at all surprised if people like Rashid or Ebenezar were aware of it too.

Also, it's Kemmler. KEMmler. With two E's.

 

They aren't, actually. Ghosts and Zombies given ectoplasmic bodies specifically aren't sucked up, which is why Bob goes trailing off into the sky, but Sue and the Necromancer's minions chill out and ignore it completely.

 

Oh yeah. Completely forgot that part. So apparently ectoplasm does work as a shield against the Darkhallow. Strange.

 

One thing that has been bugging me is where Harry denies Winter's Law and suddenly collapses paralysed.

I remember this topic being brought up earlier that Harry could heal over time but should he have too?

Here's the quote from Changes

So why does he collapses in this scene? Sure, he should feel the Mantle and its power slip away but why isn't he healed?

Regarding the Erlking, Bob specifically states that Halloween is the time where not only Mantles could change but also that power from immortals could be taken (the origin of trick or treating).

While the Darkhallow might not kill the Erlking it certainly should be possible to siphon energy from him if your ballsy enough to face the consequences.

I'm sure there will be further info on how Mantles/Masks can be stolen and added to current ones i.e. Odin/Kringle

Sorry for the edit, but on second thoughts...

Ignoring the danger to humans (which is why the well was built in an island) if all immortals are vunerable on Halloween couldn't have Harry let the Well blow up? Technically they shouldn't be able to come back.

In case they are Masks/Mantles and have to reappear could Harry take Mantles from the prisoners in a future Halloween?

Not sure if that point has been asked.

 

Only four things in this universe are infinite. Human ingenuity, human stupidity, the number of Zubats in Dark Cave, and the assumptions you have made in this post.

Can you cite. . . can you cite any of this?

And you're misunderstanding what the Erlking is period. The Erlking is the mantle. We don't know who, or what, it is beneath it. The Wild Hunt would be consumed by the Darkhallow. The hounds would be eaten, leaving behind those who chose to join. The hunter spirits that were called would be devoured. And the Erlking would be eaten, leaving behind whatever it is that is carrying the Erlking's name and mantle.

Mab isn't a person. She isn't a being. Neither is Titania, or the Erlking. They are mantles, one and all. If you performed a Darkhallow near her, 'Mab' would be gone, consumed by the ritual. Only the mortal that Mab once was would be left, whatever broken and empty shell that might be.

And cite what it is that says you could not perform a Darkhallow in the Nevernever.

 

Basically, because he never bargained that it was permanent. Mab can take what she gave at any point in time, so if she tied his healing to the mantle it would work as an effective deterrent to Harry denying her power. A good solution for dealing with headstrong wizards, I think.

---------- Post automerged at 01:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:21 AM ----------

Can you cite why the assumption that a necromantic ritual that is specifically said to eat shades/spirits would affect the Erlking is more correct than the alternative?

 

That's in return for being the Winter Knight. Harry screws with his end of the bargain and he's shit out of luck.

Sure, it's all in Dead Beat. You've just misremembered everything due to the amount of stuff you've made up.

...What? No he's not. The Erlking is a being. Well, one of the titles of a being, rather.

Someone needs to reread Cold Days. Try Herne. The Erlking is Herne's title. Nothing more.

Parts of it would be.

Yeah, no. Except the hunter spirit part. Everything else you just made up.

Holy Jesus are you pull stuff out of your ass like whoa. Mab is in fact a person. As is Titania. They have Mantles, granted, but they're beings. And the Darkhallow would not consume them.

The part where it says it can't consume beings with physical presence + the fact that pretty much everything has a physical presence in the Nevernever. Even ghosts.

 

I'm not so sure I agree.

If the deal was that Harry had to be healed before entering service as Winter Knight it also explains why Mab was in Chicago at the Well healing Dresden, not only due to wanting Harry as the WK but because she was obliged to by their bargain.