My arguments were for his justification to destroy Konoha after knowing. Not before. I would agree that what he did was wrong, but I think we can all agree that he was mentally damaged.

Also, considering the level of power Sasuke and Naruto were throwing around at the valley of the end first fight it could be argued that Naruto was trying to kill Sasuke as well. Sasuke chose not to kill Naruto when he could have.

Sasuke is a traitor...but all things considering...Tsunade could be considered one as well to an extent yet she ended up Hokage.

 

You need a new definition of treason if you think Tsunade counts as one. The worst she could be pegged with is dereliction of duty, if she is even counted as part of the ninja hierarchy at that point.

 

She was at least guilty of sedition considering her interactions with Orochimaru.

In this world, it was only the caring of the Third Hokage that allowed her to run off without being marked as a missing nin. Which is much the same as Sasuke in that the only reason he was not initially marked was because of his relationship with Naruto.

Her leaving led to who knows how many deaths without her expertise.

 

If you'll look back at that arc, she tried to kill him. Not exactly sedition there.

Also, treason is a crime that you have to actively commit. You can't accidentally commit treason. Sasuke defected to an enemy nation while Tsunade was tempted by propaganda but ultimately decided to remain loyal.

 

She tried to kill him only after meeting with Jiraiya/Naruto. All the talk before that I would count as sedition. I believe she even knew he killed Hiruzen by that point.

 

I stopped following Naruto a long time ago, but care to elaborate how punching a hole into someone's chest qualifies as '(choosing) not to kill Naruto'?

I do find it particularly amusing the double standards in regards to Sasuke though. I'm just throwing out numbers here, but I feel justified in saying 80% of readers who hate him have no issue with Naruto being the exact same way in their 'dark Naruto' fics.

 

This.

Additionally, Tsunade didn't run off and join their greatest enemy. Or even ANY Rival of Konoha's. She just became a traveling gambling addict and drunk, who perhaps did some healing on the side, though we aren't really told one way or the other. I have trouble believing she didn't practice at all in all those years, though.

Sasuke wasn't marked a missing nin because of Naruto wielding his influence with Tsunade, but that doesn't change the fact that comparing Sasuke to Tsunade is disingenuous. Tsunade basically quit the ninja profession. Sasuke joined an active, powerful, aggressive enemy of the Leaf almost DIRECTLY after it had assaulted Konoha and claimed the lives of Konoha citizens. Including the Third. Fucking. Hokage.

He is a traitor, of the absolute worst stripe.

As for his justification for trying to destroy Konoha AFTER he knew? No. He had justification in, say, hunting down the elders who made the decision. Even perhaps the Third if he'd still been alive. But ALL of Konoha? No. That was just him being a vengeful, hateful, mentally unbalanced assface.

Funny enough, I like what Sasuke is doing at the end of the Manga. He's not really 'back' in Konoha, despite being affiliated with them once more. But is instead travelling, trying to make up for the crimes of his clan, including himself. Though I dislike the fact that he's apparently a deadbeat dad.

 

What exactly did she do up until that point that would count as sedition? She was tempted by his offer of reanimating her loved ones in return for healing him, but then chose to deceive him and attempt to kill him. She didn't give away state secrets and she didn't offer to help him attack Konoha. Hell, she even refused to help him because she knew he wouldn't keep a promise to leave Konoha alone (a stipulation that she added to their deal, I might add).

What you're attempting to charge her with here is thought crime. Nothing more and nothing less. Yes, she was tempted by his offer. Yes, she gave it serious thought. Ultimately though loyalty to the village (and Naruto) won out over her own personal desires. Everything that came before that is coloured by her final decision because to engage in an act of sedition you must first do something that is actually detrimental to your country.

Tsunade did not.

---------- Post automerged at 01:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:31 AM ----------

If I'm reading a dark!Naruto fic it's because I want to see that type of character in that type of story. In canon the story is very much not about dark! characters, which makes Sasuke ill fitting for a character we're supposed to like.

 

So you actually assumed that Sasuke was a responsible person? Really?

 

Well, he did seem all gung ho about his family. It seems out of character for him to be so distant about a living, breathing member of it.

He's talking about when Sasuke is awake and moving and Naruto is not, at the end of the fight. A weak argument, at best. As he had previously, as you and many others have pointed out, do his damnedest to kill his best friend. People who make this argument tend to ignore the 'emotionally and mentally drained' aspect that probably factored into that decision. As killing Naruto was never about an act of killing in cold blood, but rather motivated specifically BECAUSE Naruto mattered so much to him. Of course he'd have trouble with it when he couldn't work up that emotion after a difficult, draining battle.

 

We don't know what happened after Sasuke had a kid. For all we know Sasuke had to travel for work. He's not necessarily a dead beat dad.

 

I believe he's referring to the end of the fight. After Sasuke won he decides not to kill Naruto for the MS.

 

Totally forgot about that.

Thought it was more about not wanting to be his brother than Naruto being his bff.

 

It was imo.

 

You've crossed fanon into canon. Naruto is stupid in canon for two reasons:
1) (Unwanted/unwarranted) Comic relief.
2) To provide an easy platform for exposition to the audience.

If you believe an in-story reason was given, please cite it. Because I'm quite sure there isn't.

I get what you're saying and authors who make Naruto retardedly stupid in their stories are also missing the point of why Naruto is stupid in canon. I also agree that if Naruto were a real person, I would suspect that his lack of intelligence stemmed from a lack of development. It is by far the most likely explanation. Yet, I also think this fandom is overflowing with Naruto's who are "intelligent" (meaning, behaving in a way the author considers intelligent). I like the fact that canon Naruto is an underdog.

I'm pretty sure that was all retconned. Do you actually believe that Hiruzen was anywhere close to Hashirama in combat potential?

At this point, my headcanon (which admittedly is speculation and others may disagree with) is:
1) 7th Hokage
1.5) Edo Tensei 4th Hokage
2) 1st Hokage
3) 6th Hokage (inherited broken techniques)
4) 2nd Hokage (not only did he invent a ton of badass techniques like Kage Bunshin and Edo Tensei, but he also used spacetime techniques -- my headcanon is that the 4th's spacetime technique is merely an improved version of the 2nd's)
5) 3rd Hokage (at his prime)
6) 4th Hokage in life
6.5) 3rd Hokage at his death
7) 5th Hokage
7.5) Danzo, who doesn't count as Hokage in my book

I don't know what past discussions you have had with Vincent. You are coming across childishly here.

Sasuke's eye hacks are stupid, broken, and he gets magical power-ups whenever the plot demands it. Kishimoto has a fucking hard-on for Sasuke's eyes. The sheer number of Sharingan variations absolutely proves it.

Nevertheless, Kishimoto is the author and his word defines the canon. Sasuke is clearly the character Kishimoto wanted to write about and I don't think anyone other than Naruto can beat him even if he doesn't bother using his fancy eyes because Kishimoto has that much of a hard-on for Sasuke. In fact, I am already anticipating that in the follow-ons to the Naruto manga, it's Sasuke who will probably be acknowledged as the strongest character.

Maybe, but I'm not sold on that. Again, I personally don't have the 3rd in my top half among the Hokage's. All the rumors about how uber badass he was seem to have been retconned out of existence. The 1st was clearly on a different level, the likes of which only Naruto knows. When pushes comes to shove, we've never seen the 3rd do anything. Yes, he sealed Orochimaru's arms... at the cost of his life and eternal soul. Ouch. And Orochimaru gets his arms back in the end anyway. Double ouch.

And I don't know that I've ever seen a strong!Sarutobi in fanfiction who I've truly liked as a combatant, as a ninja. My personal feeling is that his strengths are in his knowledge, intelligence, and skill (mastery of the basics, ability to utilize a huge variety of skills efficiently and effectively). When he's portrayed as strong in fanfiction, he's always either given a super technique (like in Shezza's fic) or just made super powerful, with 1st Hokage chakra levels. I saw one fic where he overpowered a biju. Just raw power. Yeah, uhm no.

Then again, Yagura and Gaara's dad seem a bit weak compared to some of the other Kage's we've seen like the 3rd or 4th Raikage, 2nd Mizukage or all 3 of the Tsuchikage's.

 

There isn't an in-story reason cited specifically. However, I'm not arguing exactly about why he was stupid. He could be stupid for any reason. What I'm arguing about is his work ethic, which is well-founded in canon. Naruto is dumb, but earnest. He wants to learn. When people like Jiyaiya teach, Naruto learns. He trained his ass off to get tree-walking and water-walking down. He learned the rasengan by hard-nosing his way through it. He learned senjutsu from the toads. Canon is full of examples of Naruto putting in effort. By this logic, we can say that Naruto isn't really dumb 'cause he doesn't try. There is some other reason. It's never explicitly pointed out in canon, as you and I seem to agree on, it seems that lack of development is the likely answer.

 

In my defence, I stopped reading Naruto when it turned into DBZ, back when Sarutobi was a badass.

I see you referencing the 6th and 7th and am all 'whaaa?' lol

 

About Sasuke turning traitor, I think it is worth mentioning that just before defecting he had been forced to relive the whole Uchiha massacre over and over again. It doesn't justify betraying your home and friends but we can't really say he was in the best mental place after that.

If you compare his behavior prior being tortured by Itachi and after it, there is a big change there. He went from "I've to protect my friends!" to "I've to murder everything!". He is still a traitor but it feels like people forget that whenever the issue is discussed and they extend the 'traitorous bastard' label to the beginning of the manga which leads to bashing and an unfair portrayal of the character. Looking at his actions up to that point it doesn't feel like he would have left Konoha without the mental torture.

As for the sharingan, I personally like to think that the whole absurd bunch of powers we are shown is because the Uchihas we see (Sasuke, Itachi, Madara, Shisui) are supposed to be the geniuses of the clan, eye techniques included and that there is no way in hell the other members could do any of those things. Or that it is not that they are all inherent sharingan powers but different jutsus created like the different techniques of the other clans.

Sasuke without the sharingan... well, he is strong canonically and a prodigy. I don't know if he would be kage level without it at the time the manga ended but he did have the potential to become one without it, just not as fast. How young would depend if by no sharingan you mean if he would lose it or if he had never manifested it and was forced to evolve differently though you could wonder the same about Naruto if he didn't have massive chakra reserves.

 

I think we should turns this thread back towards actual fics.

 

Well, I can't remember if this is canon or fanon, but he always seemed gung-ho about restoring the Uchila clan. I'm sure all that traveling probably helps with that....

All I'm saying is, there's probably a lot of dark haired/dark-eyed kids born 9-months after Sasuke floats out of towns. (Not a serious opinion, I just find the idea of Sasuke fucking his way through the Elemental Countries as hilarious).

And Republic, I had that sentiment ~30 posts ago. I'd post a story, but none of the ones I currently follow have gone unmentioned in this thread.