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HP Questions that don't deserve their own thread V2

Discussion in 'Fanfic Discussion' started by Sesc, Oct 22, 2014.

  1. Rayndeon

    Rayndeon Professor

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    I'm not denying that Aurors wouldn't get specialized training. I was just imagining that certain equipment and techniques seem to be more in the vogue in real life special forces as opposed to what we're canonically exposed to from Aurors, and in particular, what we expect, canonically.

    There's a couple of directions you can approach that. One way is that one rewrites the way Aurors are conceptualized as apart from canon, so that certain techniques and equipment are already apart of Auror SOP, regardless of Muggle counterparts. The result would be a convergence in tactics and training, which wouldn't be that surprising since similarity of problems tends to lead to similarity in solutions.

    The other direction I was conceiving of here was cooperation between the two, given that canonically many wizards seem grossly ignorant of the Muggle world, due to a lack of interest. (Conversely, Muggles are grossly ignorant of the Wizarding World, due to design) I don't think it would be remiss if there was call for consultation on certain matters. From what we've seen of Aurors and the like, the Ministry doesn't have anything like a standing army or the infrastructure to support it. I imagine they would stand to gain from cross-training with certain elements of the Muggle military.

    For example, we're never exposed to anything like long-range casting. We don't ever see a Dark wizard taken out by a Killing Curse from 500 meters out, so I'm assuming that long-range casting is a no-go. Solution? Actual muggle sniping equipment, presumably enchanted and what not. Surely the Auror Corps would find it nice to have the opportunity to take out a target - if needed - from a distance, rather than having to approach within less than 100 meters every time to do so?

    Well, the circumstances between the two are rather different, I would imagine. (Given the relative scarcity of the wizards and the lack of any sort of standing military, the dynamics and nature of Muggle asymmetric warfare and at best, Wizarding asymmetric conflict are very, very different)

    But, more importantly, the two questions you're asking there seem to be quite different. It's one thing to ask "Why were these techniques not used at all throughout the duration of this conflict" versus "Why were these techniques by themselves not sufficient to end this conflict?" Presumably, something like the SEALs themselves were not sufficient by themselves to end the Iraq War neither were the SAS sufficient to end the Troubles. But it's one thing to say that a particular tool in one's toolbox isn't sufficient to get the job done and it's whole other point to say that it isn't necessary or useful to have it? Not all home repair issues nor all aspects of such issues can be solved with a hammer, but few would deny that it would be good to have one for many situations.

    I dislike wizard bashing as well. I'm not bringing up the idea to spark another "Wizards vs Muggles" debate to see which side is "better" - but rather, I think it would be interesting to see how the two worlds could complement each other, at least on the highest levels of secrecy.

    Once again, it's not a matter of "Muggles do it better." It's more like "We already do this okay or pretty well in real life, so I imagine people with magic should be able to do it just as well, if not much better?" Seeing as how the premise of the HP universe is that magical society coexists secretly amongst us mere Muggles, I'm assuming they are just as intelligent - if not more intelligent through certain magical means - as us and should be able of similar or better solutions to similar problems. (Xandrel's suggestion above is an excellent magical analogue to the Internet, for example.)

    I do think there is a reason for the discrepancies, though. The example that comes most readily to mind right now is the use of owls as opposed to a magical version of the Internet or the like. I could see owls being used in the earlier days of magical development, but it doesn't seem remiss to suppose that wizards could emulate something like texting - as in the example I used by extrapolating the possibilities of the Protean Charm - and possibly even going as far as something like the Internet. So then the question becomes - if wizards can do this, why hasn't someone done it already? Surely it would be much, much more convenient than using owls?

    My sense of it is that the presence of owls, broomsticks, and other contraptions and devices in the HP universe exist not so much as part of the nature of HP magic - that is to say, as a logical extrapolation of the mechanics and logistics of HP magic - but for thematic reasons of the sort that conflict with a given set of expected outcomes. It's the same sort of reason why Harry's time at the Dursleys evokes humor rather than angst. From a logical perspective, if we try to think through what the effects on an actual child would be at the hands of the real-life equivalent of the Dursleys, they would have a lot of psychological issues. This is handwaved away in the same way as it is in Roald Dahl stories, because its presence in the stories isn't a matter of logic and the like.

    This does raise an issue with worldbuilding, because from a worldbuilding perspective, those choices intrinsically degrade the overall coherence and versimiltude of the fictional universe. As far as fan fiction is concerned then, it becomes a choice of what direction one wishes to take in their worldbuilding and to what degree the author can distract the reader from asking themselves certain uncomfortable questions. In other words, to what extent can those elements in the story prevent us from losing our suspension of disbelief? (Or in another words, why are HP wizards still stuck on using owls all the time? Maybe on rare occasions, but as the default mode of written communication?)

    I imagine the Statue and other limitations of that sort are restricted to everyday witches and wizards in not revealing magic or mucking about with Muggle technology, although that leaves aside the question of what counts as unquestionably "Muggle" technology. We're not talking about everyday witches and wizards in my suggestion.

    (Presumably, computers and satellites are unquestionably Muggle technology. But, I doubt anyone would argue that parchment or ink is unquestionably and exclusively Muggle. In canon we see the "Knight's Bus," which apparently doesn't violate any laws regarding mucking about with Muggle technology. What about firearms? Like the Knight's Bus, there's no electronics involved - it's mechanical and chemical energy entirely. But at any rate, I think the question of "technology transfer" is a moot point for the aforementioned reason)

    No doubt, which is why I was imagining here that cooperation would largely be on a fairly restricted basis. (Hence, no wizards hailing from Coalition countries participated in the Iraq War) It would come down to something like counting favors e.g. "You Muggles help us track this wizard that escaped into the Muggle world and we'll help you get info on this criminal you want caught and so forth."

    That doesn't really seem to make sense and a fictional world constructed like that lacks verisimilitude. If the PM knows, presumably a lot of other people are going to know. And assuming that the upper levels of Muggle Britain aren't stupid, they're going to know too. (Same goes with other countries, also counting on shared intelligence between said countries) And given the canonical ignorance that Wizards have of Muggle affairs, bureaucracy, and infrastructure in general, it's going to be very difficult to completely hide away those sorts of things.

    Again, that's applied at best to everyday wizards in their interactions with everyday Muggles. Neither the PM nor various higher ups in the Muggle government and military are going to be "everyday Muggles" and neither will certain Aurors or Ministry personnel be "everyday wizards." There's no reason to suppose they would operate off the same rules.

    The reason why we don't see it in canon is because the focus of the series is Harry Potter and his limited interactions with the magical world. That doesn't mean that the question doesn't arise from a worldbuilding perspective, especially on any fics that are going to be focused on Aurors and the like. In reality, we have rather limited information of the structure of the magical world, as well as on both the nature and limitations of magic.

    There's a fair bit we might conjecture, some we can extrapolate, but my sense is that there's a quite bit one has to just flat out make up to see that things hang together. We simply don't receive enough information from canon.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2015
  2. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    Rayndeon: My post marked the end of the topic. If you want to discuss, make a thread (or ask a FF Discussion mod kindly to move the posts ... and start a new thread right away next time :|)

    I told you the facts:

    And that's Canon on the matter.
     
  3. Nauro

    Nauro Headmaster

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    Do we know how long before Harry getting his Phoenix feather wand Fawkes parted with it?

    Was it implied that both feathers were given simultaniously or the opposite?
     
  4. Andrela

    Andrela Plot Bunny DLP Supporter

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    We don't actually know. I always assumed Fawkes gave both feathers at the same time.
     
  5. Nauro

    Nauro Headmaster

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    Good.

    I can say that they were given some time apart, and it will even be canon compliant.
     
  6. Dye

    Dye Second Year DLP Supporter

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    Does Petunia ever actually hit Harry over the head with a frying pan or is that just a trope that appears in lots of bad fanfiction?
     
  7. Andrela

    Andrela Plot Bunny DLP Supporter

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    Dye
  8. IAmJustAnotherGuy

    IAmJustAnotherGuy Seventh Year

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    Obviously the movies aren't cannon, but does Harry ever go out like in HBP? In OotF he is at the park before the dementor attack but does he goes, I don't know, to the movies or something a teenager would go?
     
  9. Andrela

    Andrela Plot Bunny DLP Supporter

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    Probably, but that would be completely uninteresting so it isn't mentioned in the books.
     
  10. Peter North

    Peter North Dark Lord

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    As far as the books are concerned Harry always spends his time at Privite Drive before visiting the Weasley' s he has never gone passed Magnolia Crescent.
     
  11. theminikiller

    theminikiller Third Year

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    Is there ever given anymore detail on Dumbledores pocket watch that he used in at least as I can remember PS and OOTP? IIRC Harry got one from the Weasleys on his seventeenth birthday as well didn't he?
     
  12. Persephone

    Persephone Fourth Year

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  13. gorgonfish

    gorgonfish Second Year

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    Is there any mention of what non-latin based foreign spells would be like as far as incantation?
     
  14. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Avada Kedavra is Aramaic.
     
  15. Andrela

    Andrela Plot Bunny DLP Supporter

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    Pack is English.


    Yes, I feel very clever.
     
  16. afrojack

    afrojack Chief Warlock DLP Supporter

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    Point Me.

    Alohamora (semi-Hawaiian).
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2015
  17. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    All the healing spells have Greek roots.
     
  18. Nerdman3000

    Nerdman3000 Seventh Year

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    Why do you think it is that the Ministry of Magic doesn't Taboo the Unforgivable Curses like Voldemort's Ministry did during Book Seven?
     
  19. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Why do you think it is the Muggle government doesn't install microphones in every person's house to listen to all their conversations for certain key words?
     
  20. Andrela

    Andrela Plot Bunny DLP Supporter

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    Voldemort is not someone you want to set up as an example.

    Well, unless we're talking academic prowess. In that case the best student to ever attend Hogwarts is a good example to follow.
     
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