That's an interesting take! Consensual at first, but Rhaegar doesn't let her leave.

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I get annoyed at the courtly love of R&L fics like you do, but to a much lesser degree. I don't think for a second that Rhaegar actually loved Lyanna. I think it wouldn't make sense for him to marry her. IMO, a prophesy told Rhaegar to have another baby. When Elia Martell couldn't, he was trawling Harrenhal for any takers. Lyanna, being sixteen and not knowing any better, fell for him and Rhaegar manipulated that. He wanted another kid and a bastard would do just fine.

Given what Jaime says of Rhaegar - and as a character Jaime feels objective in this case - it seems unlikely that Rhaegar would rape anyone. Manipulate? Definitely. Knock up? Yup. Hold a pregnant Lyanna against her will? Makes sense. But not actually rape her.

So what about this, Odran:

Lyanna goes with him willingly and stupidly. They bone. Once he knows she's pregnant, Rhaegar makes sure that the Kingsguard don't let her leave. Then war, death, etc, etc.

 

What about it?

Rhaegar and Lyanna are still idiots for not thinking about the consequences of their actions.

 

My best guess would be that they did fall in love. Granted, I don't think they would have fallen in love if Elia could birth another child, or if Lyanna was not betrothed to Robert. At the same time, these two factors alone would not make them elope.

What we know about Rhaegar says that he was quite willing to change his mind on the interpretation of the prophecy and knows that he could interpret it wrong (Look at the correspondence between Aemon and Rhaegar - they were actively discussing possible interpretations).

Likewise, Lyanna was not thrilled about Robert, but she clearly did not reject the betrothal utterly. Lyanna is an amalgam of Arya and Sansa - She is willing to do her "duty", but she will raise hell instead of meekly accepting injustices.

And finally, it is privileging the present to think that the outcome of the elopement was war. I think they were going for "forgiveness is easier than permission" - they will marry and consummate the marriage, and everyone will have no choice except to accept the marriage. It happened before - look at Jaehaerys and Shaera. They simply did not anticipate the chain of events that follow - which is quite justifiable, no one can look that far into the future.

 

War was not the most probable outcome. If Brandon had not rode into the Capitol and demanded Rhaegar come out and die their decision would not have led to war. Anyone that thinks that was a predictable or probable reaction is delusional. Brandon's decision was the most foolish of anyone yet it's never commented on. We're they foolish for doing as they did? Only knowing the outcome makes this so. If Brandon had not acted so stupidly it is likely that his sister would have been a Queen.

 

I'm not sure if your trolling, ignorant, or deliberately stupid?

 

What the hell are you talking about?

Why would anyone accept a polygamous marriage in pre-Rebellion Westeros?

The Targaryens didn't get away with one post-Conquest and that was back when they had dragons. What makes you think that everyone would be accepting of it so now that they have none?

War was the inevitable outcome.

Even if Brandon didn't go to King's Landing and Aerys hadn't killed him and his father in a horrific and unjust way, there would have been war. War from Robert Baratheon.

Sure, it might have been a short lived one, like Lyonel Baratheon's rebellion, but I'm fairly certain more people would have joined him in the rebellion simply because it just goes to show that the man they wanted to put on the Iron Throne in favor of the current king was no better than his mad father.

Also, how the fuck would have Lyanna been Queen when Elia was very much alive?

If you're trying to push out the "polygamy is totes an accepted thing for Targs" see the first part of my post.

 

It is the difference between permission vs forgiveness. If they tried to convince people first, there would be no marriage. On the other hand, after a wedding and a bedding, opposing the marriage will be a lot more difficult.

---------- Post automerged at 04:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:42 PM ----------

If war was the inevitable outcome, why did it not break out immediately? Why the delay until Aerys demanded the heads of Eddard and Robert. The sequence of events suggest that Aerys murder of Rickard and Brandon is the trigger.

Also, there are a ton on examples where broken betrothals did not result in war.

 

... you're just not getting it, are you?

Rhaegar is already married to Elia.

Hence, whatever procession he might have with Lyanna would not count as a valid one.

Him doing a make-believe wedding does not make it a legit one.

All Lyanna would get from that mess is a "USED GOODS" stamp and a bastard.

Are you serious? Your reasoning for a lack of a rebellion, if Brandon and Rickard were alive, is "It didn't happen instantly when Lyanna disappeared"? You do recall that Rhaegar taking Lyanna wasn't exactly widespread knowledge, right?

How Brandon learned of this, we have no idea.

It's only after the whole thing comes to light that a rebellion of sorts begins to take form.

Mustering armies takes times. Organizing everything involved in wars even more so.

Name me several of those examples that involved a (Baratheon) Lord Paramount and a daughter of another Lord Paramount.

 

I do not agree with this. If the Starks, the Targaryens and High Septon hold that the marriage is real, then it is real.

 

Your agreement or disagreement is irrelevant. The Starks would not agree to it. It messes with their plans (Rickard's) of forming an alliance between the North, the Riverlands, the Stormlands and the Vale.

I'm also fairly certain Aerys was bonkers as hell and had no intention of allowing his son, whom he perceived as a threat at the time, yet another wife and yet more influence with another highly placed family.

And you're forgetting the reactions of the commonfolk. They would turn on Rhaegar, for the majority of them worship the Seven. Cue Faith Militant being reborn several decades earlier than canon.

But let's say those three parties even say that somehow polygamy is back in style. The Rebellion still happens because people have had enough of Targaryen fucking shits fucking up the realm with their idiotic actions.

And by people I mean every other high lord besides the Starks.

 

I am serious. Stop appealing to incredulity.

Allow me to enumerate the chain of events:
1) Rhaegar absconds with Lyanna
2) Brandon challenges Rhaegar to a duel to death in the Red Keep. Aerys arrests him, and summons Rickard to answer for Brandon's crimes
3) Rickard responds to the summons. Aerys burns Brandon and Rickard.

Now, if it is the first event that is the impetus, why did Rickard respond to the summons? Why not immediately call the banners and march to war?

Jaehaerys and Shaera betrothal to the Tullys and Tyrells.

 

Because they didn't know that Aerys was that fucking insane to burn them alive without a trial of any sorts.

Because they weren't in possession of all the facts just yet.

You did notice the Baratheon part, right?

 

If Rhaegar and Lyanna absconding alone means war, then Rickard would have never responded to Aerys's summons. Will you concede that if Rickard knows about Rhaegar and Lyanna absconding, your model requires Rickard to not respond to the summons and go to war instead?

I don't understand what you are asking for? Are you saying that you will accept only examples where the groom is a Baratheon?

 

That's not just based on whether Rickard knows about Rhaegar taking off with Lyanna.

It's my honest opinion that Lyanna's willingness, or lack thereof, counts for nothing.

Like it or not, it is the reality of Westeros that women don't tend to have a say in choosing their husbands, that more oft than not everyone (not just women) marries for the sake of political convenience and benefits rather than any trivial emotions of love.

So while her father might punish her in some way if she ran off willingly, ultimately Rickard would demand her return, without question.

If he were to receive word that it's not happening, then yes, war is something that will happen.

Will it happen in the same way the canon rebellion did? No.

But it's coming and there's shitall the Targaryens can do to prevent it.

By virtue of Brandon marrying Catelyn that pulls in the Riverlands. By virtue of Robert being Lyanna's betrothed, that pulls in the Stormlands. By virtue of Tywin being Tywin, he does nothing. By virtue of Jon Arryn mulling things over, he'd at the very least ignore the call to arms from the Targaryens and at the very best ally himself with Rickard's faction since they've already done so much planning beforehand to let it go to waste.

So that leaves the Reach and Dorne allied with the Crownlands.

Like in canon.

How did that go again for them?

Yes, you dense cunt.

Because Robert is a Baratheon.

Because his family's words are "OURS IS THE FURY" which might clue you into the general Baratheon temperament.

 

Rickard was summoned to answer for Brandon's treasons. Aerys has eliminated any possibility of discussions and Rickard knows this. This is the point of time where Rickard could go to war or he could answer the summons and face a trial of combat. He chose trial of combat. This means that he had written off Lyanna for Brandon's sake. Even if he wins, he can no longer demand anything.

You have asked a question with a loophole, and are now using this loophole to pretend you have asked a more stringent but less justifiable question. I have to ask, are you debating in good faith, or do you want to just win the argument?

 

Since your entire argument seems to include this assumption...

...why the hell do you think people would go for polygamy in opposition to literal millennia of tradition instead of just "he fucked her" and acknowledging the bastard?



Also, if we are whining about poor debating: "broken betrothals did not lead to war" is a shit position anyways, this is far more than that. It's spitting in your wife's face to go fuck another man's betrothed, then making off with her.

 

There are two topics going on here:

1) Factors that lead to Robert's Rebellion
2) Details of Rhaegar and Lyanna relationship

In 1, My position is that Rhaegar and Lyanna absconding is the spark that led to the rebellion (ie, the cumulative chain of events that followed resulted in the rebellion, but not the initial event by itself). Odran holds that the absconding alone necessitates the rebellion. I believe that both the majority of in-universe characters, and the fandom is on my side on this. Odran's interpretations simply make no sense.

In 2, I openly admit that I am speculating. We have very little information on this and the fandom is polarized. The biggest influence in my view is this article.

"Running off with Rhaegar doesn’t have to have been a good option for Lyanna for it to be her best option. Lyanna making the same choice as Alys, to roll the dice rather than be forced by male relatives into a marriage to a dirtbag"

As a corollary, there has to be a marriage for it to be a "good" option for Lyanna.

I am tired of the arguments, and give up. Take away what you will.

 

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc497/lula18CS/popcorn.gif

 

Why did you have to call him a dense cunt?

The whole problem with the Lyanna analysis is her blatant hypocrisy. But she was what, all of 14 or 15? Her stupidity is of the same quality as Sansa's and Dany's. Her options were run off/get abducted by married Rhaegar, or marry a man who idealized/idolized her. Her best option is quite obviously Robert.

I agree with both of you, on some points. I think A war would've happened regardless, as it doesn't seem that Baratheon's take well to being humiliated. Burning Brandon and Rickon, and demanding of Jon Arryn that he give his wards to the Iron Throne for the same... Well, that turned the war into the cluster fuck that it was.

If Brandon didn't ride south, and Robert called his banners, I can see Brandon doing the same, perhaps with his father's blessing, but probably not.

Basic and simple: stealing Lyanna led to war; burning the LP's of the north turned what might have been a short lived rebellion into the end of the Targaryen dynasty.

 

Here's the thing. You're making a distinction with "alone", but it is a ridiculous distinction to make. Odran holds that absconding alone necessitates the rebellion, which you have a problem with - gotcha. But this isn't happening in a vacuum, the culture and political system of Westeros play a role in any assessment you're going to make. What I'm trying to say is that the more accurate statement is:

"In light of

1. the millennia of tradition Rhaegar was spitting on,
2. the religious tensions such an act would create,
3. the intense insult it levied against two of the Lords Paramount,
4. the ill-will this would engender with the rest of Lords Paramount,
5. the general decline of the realm under the latter part of Aerys' rule,
6. the tensions that had been building over the last century,
7. the disparity of power between the Iron Throne and its principle vassals,
8. the effect such a disparity of power has on the nature of the feudal lord-feudal vassal relationship,
9. the fact that mere inertia was the principle force holding the realm together,
10. and the hints at a wider conspiracy which was being disrupted by Rhaegar's actions,

Rhaegar running off with Lyanna is precisely the sort of fuck up which could have been sufficient to trigger the rebellion all on its own, even in the absence of Brandon being a frat boy."

You can say that Brandon and Rickon's deaths are what pushed the Rebel Alliance to act - this is true, as per the canon sequence of events. But saying that there would be no rebellion without them doesn't follow from that. Lyanna's abduction alone does highlight similar tension, and you have three angry Lords Paramount as a direct result of it, with ties to two more regions.

tl;dr - Yes, in the canon sequence of events the burnings are what triggered the rebellion. This doesn't mean that Rhaegar's actions alone couldn't tip over the massively unstable political situation in the Realm at the time.


Also, since you took the time out to note Odran appealing to incredulity, I will similarly reject your appeal to popularity. One can say the majority of the Harry Potter fandom also believes in limited magic and magical cores - that doesn't make the idea any less retarded.

The fact that some random person referred to it as a marriage is what you're considering the largest influence behind your view? I...fine, I'll indulge you. Consider everything in that article sacrosanct.

Your statement is still unsupported. There doesn't have to be a marriage for it to be a "good" option for Lyanna - if we are accepting Robert as scum and being forced into marriage with said dickbag by her male relatives as the failure condition, then why did the "good" alternative suddenly become a marriage? Being Rhaegar's mistress and having his acknowledged bastard is still apparently the better option, where she avoided the system of limitations on women (...sorta. I mean, I would argue neither scenario had her actually avoid said limitations - but again, considering the article all true).

(I mean, this ignores the consequences of said action in making the judgement value, which is particularly weird, since that is how this entire argument started, but whatever.)
(In fact, the Karstark parallels make even less sense as I think about it...because Rhaegar is already married. THAT is the real problem here, not the fact that it would theoretically be "an unconventional ceremony under the auspices of a minority religion" or that a male relative disagreed - since it was the relative status and power of the people involved which make said disagreement matter in the case of Rhaegar and Lyanna.)