The Douro is a tiny river compared to what the Trident rivers are estimated to be.

You want something comparable you need at least something the size of the Danube or the Volga at wide points.

19th century armies were also much lighter than knights with heavy armor and plate.

But my main point is, why would there be barges with the capacity to carry a serious amount of weight nearby? It makes no economic sense, there would be no business. The Twins are much safer, quicker and probably as cheap for crossing. That and they are right on the road. It makes no sense to set up a business of barges crossing in a long radius from the Twins

 

Presumably the barges wouldn't be taking things across rivers but up and down their length which would have been much quicker ways of transporting goods - the barges on the Douro took wine from the countryside to Porto. If you're going to bring up the Danube, for example, then in real life the trade up and down the river linked Germany and Austria with Byzantium and later the Ottoman Empire. There's no way that boats don't travel up and down the Trident.

Of course, if Robb made the decision to cross at the Twins but was refused then he would lose face if he decided to find an alternative route and it would implicitly put the Freys with the Lannisters. He needed the Frey soldiers, needed to cross in a good strategic location and needed to do it quickly. I just think that doesn't mean there wouldn't have been an alternative.

 

Which should have been "scour the forests and build a dozen trebuchets. Burn the Frey land's, and slaughter their bannermen. Load the trebuchets with flaming pitch and FIRE!"

They could've crossed over the ruins. Granted, a little more time might've passed, but what does that matter? Tywin wasn't going anywhere, nor Jaime.

But these are sweet, honorable Starks. Nothing like the Kings of Winter. Where is Theon the Hungry when you need them? GOT would've been better if the Starks fit with the rest of the world.

I wished for a strong Arryn heir as well. And I wonder what Robb wouldve been if he were half Dornish. It was the Tully in him that made him stupid.

That's another deviation there. What of Hoster had raised a more competent son? A more sizeable force at the golden tooth, or waiting along Tywin's route to Harrenhal could've made for engaging reading. Certainly a more even playing field.

 

Isn't this why fanfiction exists? To explore the what if's?

And when you can't find something, you write it yourself.

My Ned Stark SI fic was partly inspired by my disgust for the constant showing and telling of how honorable and fair Ned was, even to his own detriment at times. None of that really fit with the rest of the world, as you say. The Starks couldn't have survived for 8000 years if they acted like that.

And yet, even in the history of the North, there were inconsistencies. Like the Boltons. They helped push the Greystarks to rebellion and joined them in it, but when the rebellion was crushed, the Greystarks were wiped out while the Boltons weren't. It makes no sense, that they would kill an offshoot branch of their family, but spare one of their biggest rivals?

Let's not even get into the whole mess of how the North never once had a proper fleet of its own after Brandon the Burner burned it down hundreds or thousands of years ago. Why wouldn't any Stark after him build one again? If only to protect their western shores against the Ironborn or their eastern ship-routes from the pirates. Relying just on the Manderlys for a fleet seems downright idiotic, regardless of how loyal they are to the Starks.

 

Link please

 

It's not much. Only some 50k words into it before I stopped updating.

Word of caution, it's an AU take of sorts that starts from when Ned is about to be fostered in the Vale. More than a few things are changed from the canon history of the ASOIAF, the most notable difference being that there's a lot more Targaryens around, due to Rhaella not suffering miscarriages. All luck of the die, really.

And my writing isn't really all that well, it's just the premise which pulled people in to read it.

I'm not doing justice to the standard ASOAIF descriptive writing, not like Cxjenious in his TBP story.

For Lack of Honor

I'll try to update by the end of the year with another 50k or so, but I can't guarantee anything.

 

Nothing different could have happened if Walder Frey insisted in behaving in such a manner. Handing over a future lord paramount for a bridge is utterly stupid, though time seemed to be of the essence at that particular moment, though I cannot see how a few days could have changed the Starks position while negotiating release and clearing of the Riverlands.

Edmure is not good at thinking far ahead, but his actions are not greatly at fault in the initial stages. Hoster was hedging his bets on letting the crown reining in the Lannisters, thus not all levies were concentrated nor prepared. Having Tywin Lannister break the king's peace is what would get him on the receiving end of Robert's hammer.
It was a good choice, if not for the unforeseeable rolling of sixes by Cersei and Robert dying thus the capital coup.
Thinking carefully makes me realise what a retard Tywin Lannister was, escalating the situation to an extent after which he is facing quite a lot of hostiles for no lasting gain.
We hardly know much about the opening moves of the war, but we do know that the great commander Tywin Lannister (such is the opinion of many) was frustrated easily by the moves of a teenage boy with no experience in comparison.
Mind you, no one really has great war experience in Westeros and that includes Tywin Lannister.

 

It was a bad choice. Clearly. Tywin had an army gathered and Hoster had half an army. He could've gathered more men and been well within his rights. And how they managed to lose Riverrun, I'll never know.

And we do know about the opening moves of the war. Jaime smashed the Riverlands force at the Golden Tooth and then smashed the garrison at Riverrun that decided to fight outside the castle walls.

Tywin smashed the Riverlords piecemeal because they decided to defend individual lands than present a United front, largely because Edmure ordered them to. His frustration doesn't detract from his ability. Robb never faced him in battle. He Just barely managed to capture Jaime, reclaimed Riverrun mostly due to castle design, and defeated a green army commanded by a fool.

---------- Post automerged at 04:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:42 AM ----------

Well I like the story. And the problem with fanfiction is, I can't write everything. A lot of my ideas will never be explored, and of they are explored, 8 times out of ten the writer is Shit.

 

War in the Riverlands with Robert on the throne is Tywin Lannister asking to get his face kicked in. The reason Hoster did what he did was to place blame solely on House Lannister's shoulders. Sure, the Westerlands army may even march upto Riverrun but crushing all of Riverlands, with Robert prepared to smackdown his uppity vassal who just spat on the king's peace and attacked another vassal plus attacked the king's banner is an exercise in stupidity. The only justification for Tywin Lannister's actions is 'because the plot said so' and 'because the plot showed so'.
Sure, Jaime Lannister could overwhelm smaller armies piecemeal, but then it had more to do with the political side of things than force of arms.
"Barely capturing Jaime" is also one of the things that sticks out because of its ridiculousness. The importance GRRM puts on individual capability in swordsmanship is completely useless in massed combat. Robb Stark's guard being made purely of highborns with no common men at arms is also a means of getting the Karstarks killed. Had it been even thought out a little, Jaime Lannister would have his horse killed immediately, followed by half a dozen men at arms bringing him low with polearms. All of this has got nothing to do with the defeat that was inflicted, which was complete in nature.
Robb Stark being talented is something we extract from other characters' opinion in the books. If we look closely we see that he was at least decent, with him taking a bold move that crushed one army in detail.
Of course unlike actual history we cannot make a detailed analysis of capabilities of various characters thoroughly, but then this applies to Tywin Lannister too. What did he even do that demands the laurels put on his head?
The most important part where he completely ignored political realities is where all his hypothetical military prowess is completely negated by how stupid escalation was.

And I will shut up now, this being the thread for recommending stories.

 

Also your plan would have dealt with all Walder fortifications, 4000 men and would have taken horrendous casualties.
There was talk about taking the Twins like you said ,but not a single Northen Lord continued that talk after seeing the Twins and their fortifications. Maybe they know better than you how strong Robb chances of success are.
Robb doesn't have time, and Twins need to be besieged on both sides to have any hope to succeed. In the meantime Jamie takes Riverrun, and Tywin kill Robb army while thanking Walder for his help in crushing Robb and the North. Thank you for making the North rebellion even more shorter.
Robb was in a worse position than Eddard and Robert, Jon Aryn was with Hoster during Robert Rebellion and both Robb and Walder knew it. So why should he not extract the same price Hoster did?
But continue with your Stark and Northerner wank. The people of the North are not ubermen that every southerner must bow and scrape and do every whim.

 

That's good to hear. I rather like the story.

There is something very pleasing about northerners making blood sacrifices to the old gods. It does away with the noble savage trope the fandom has stuck them with. Also the bit about how Royces weren't true First Men anymore and Lips being a racist cunt added a nice touch of tribalism that stories which keep banging on about how great the north is don't dare to touch.

 

...What are you even talking about? Lets be real. No fortification not made of steel is going to stop dozens of trebuchets loaded with boulders. Won't stop oil and fire either, won't stop men from damming the river either to flood the Twins or divert the river.

Those 4000 Frey men gonna march across a field of death to meet Robb's forces? No. They're going to cower in their castle, maybe sneak out to the otherside of the keep, maybe try to reach Tywin for help. Woopty do. Their castle still gets destroyed.

I'm not talking about capturing the castle. I'm talking about destroying it. And what is this about time? Why doesn't he have enough time? He marched from fucking Winterfell. Of course he has time.

The north didn't take the Twins because GRRM didn't want them to. Tywin was sitting on the Green Fork, waiting for Robb, not marching to meet him. Riverrun was under seige; another few days or even few weeks changes nothing; Jaime was not willing to destroy Riverrun, only capture it. He wasn't even at Riverrun when he was captured. He had fucked off to some woods. Another few days or weeks would've made him even more reckless and susceptible to ambush.

Try that "Stark Wank" shite with someone else.

 

I agree with the crossing being an important plot point for GRRM to shape the setting.
You highly over estimate both the time it takes to make siege engines and their offensive capabilities.Where are they going to get massive stones in such a short time span? Before reliable gunpowder artillery it was not easy to demolish castle walls. We know that Westerosi castles are at least on par with real world castles built in pre modern era, so assault was not an option in the given scenario.
Robb was caught in a bad situation (though I cannot imagine why someone did not try and suss the Freys out before the whole army arrived), attack and lose men and make the northern host combat ineffective or stay and allow a relatively strong Lannister host to rampage, with an army possibly capable of attacking from the rear.
Hard to believe that nobody in the war camp had thought even a little about the Freys being little bitches, and try to find some alternatives. There must be some ferries or barges all along the river.
Walder Frey was playing chicken with the Northern host. If Robb had an alternative then house Frey would have been thoroughly screwed. Not allowing the army to cross is as god as saying that he has thrown in with the Westerlands, the same enemy that is ransacking the Riverlands. Every house in the Riverlands would be their enemy.
The fact that Robb did not even try to show his displeasure with the Freys, nor try to split them into smaller contingents for their behaviour is what I find very strange.

 

There was the War of the Ninepenny Kings.

It's true though - unless we want to give some care to GRRM's rushed and kinda nonsensical outline of the Reyne-Tarbeck Rebellion, Tywin just walked through that while his enemies faffed about and he rolled 20s.

This is what gets me the most - just go fucking fight Tywin. You're on the right side of the river for that already. Even if we swallow that there is literally no crossing along the entire length of the Green Fork, it doesn't matter. Deal with the army in the field before the siege, don't send a force of infantry with no cavalry to get chewed up while you go break a siege that doesn't actually gain you much. Pick up any Riverland forces you can on your way down, meet Tywin at full strength.

If you lose significantly, you were rather fucked anyways - chances of that are no different than what Robb actually did falling apart (and are probably less so tbh). If you win, now you can move to harry a retreating Tywin and relieve Riverrun.

 

Tywin Lannister was not even a knight when he went in to the campaign. He would not have done anything that dozens other did not. It was Roger Reyne who led the Westerlands.

Actually, feudal armies tend not to get into make or break, decisive battles. The situation would have been completely ruined for the Starks if they lose. Tywin Lannister was held in high regard before he retreated to Harrenhaal.
It is actually realistic in the sense that there were few pitched battles, because even after desertion and wounded soldiers there would be the problem with logistics.
Clearing the western half of the Riverlands and having a great source of supply plus a stronghold for gathering scattered levies, consolidating and raising new armies are all solid, fool-proof methods.
I do not know if the news about Robert's death had arrived or not, but had it not arrived then there was no need to rush.
If the Lannister host goes back to Harrenhaal then it can no longer come out and harry the Riverlanders. Plus, once the North is ready to strike back, it would be capable of dictating engagement and have enough peripheral units to garrison important castles.
This is a war winning plan.

 

That's actually completely in line with canon.

It was even practiced in White Harbor, under Manderly rule, until it stopped roughly five centuries ago.

Well, they weren't. Not after so much intermarriages with the Andals.

But they were still seen as acceptable matches by Starks and Boltons, as evidenced by their history with them.

In general, I enjoyed writing of that kind of stuff. In a society like Westeros, where grudges can last for hundreds and thousands of years, it'd be hard for no divide to exist between the Andals and the First Men.

Particularly First Men in the North, who have not only managed to successfully repel their invasions, but sailed all the way back to Andalos, with one of their prominent leader's corpse lashed to the ship's prow, then set to pillaging, burning and just generally massacring the population there. Adding insult to injury, when they came back, heads of those slain by the Northmen were impaled on spikes that littered the eastern coastline as a warning to any others who thought to invade.

And it's not like that's the only cultural divide that exists in Westeros.

I doubt that really all that many in the realm are fond of the Targaryens. For every good king, queen, prince or princess they produced in the 280ish years they ruled Westeros, a dozen bad ones were there right alongside them.

Then there's Dorne.

A singularly different place from all others, which is mainly due to the Rhoynar arriving there and intermingling with the once First Men and Andals, as much in population as well as a blending and overriding of customs and traditions.

Their conflicts with the Reach and the Stormlands are quite minor when compared to their history with the Targaryens. Putting aside the improbability of them surviving Aegon and Visenya burning the whole of the realm, save castles and keeps, to ash, there was that issue with them assassinating Daeron while under parley banners, in a truce meeting.

Oh and forcing Baelor to walk into a pit of vipers to rescue one of his Kingsguard whom they held hostage.

Even when they became part of the realm, in a very lax way given their few obligations in tithes and other things, they didn't return Aegon the Conqueror's crown to them or divulged what exactly happened to Rhaenys.

Really, there's so many opportunities here for the once seven kingdoms to look down on each other in myriad ways. I never felt like that was properly explored in the official books. Not even in the additional material that was released, like TWOIAF, which doesn't even bother to go into how exactly the First Men of the Vale were converted, or why Moat Cailin was allowed to fall into ruin or any number of other details that slipped through the cracks.

 

The western shores of the neck are supposedly very rocky, to say nothing of the Vale, or the great basalt stones of Moat Cailin's ruined wall. That basalt came from somewhere relatively nearby.

I'm not overestimating anything. Trebuchets were known to destroy walls and castles. That's why they were used. At the very least, a couple hundred flaming balls of fire, launched per day, from just ONE trebuchet, would've been some sort of deterrent. Every building in the Twins isn't made of stone.

Maybe the Twins have their own catapults and such. That's fine. Just build yours larger, to have greater range.

35 blokes in Scotland made a trebuchet in 2 weeks. How long would it take 500 blokes? I'm sure some carpenters were conscripted among the 18k men Robb had in his army. And war hosts tend to have blacksmiths with them. Both of whom would have the necessary skills.

Fire oil into the river. Burn it. Fire oil into the Twins. Burn it. Need I go on?

 

Odran, I read the first bit of your SI fic and I'm quite confused. The SI knows about Ned and the ASOIAF canon; how? And the bit with the shadows and disguise and shit, does he have magical powers?

What's the actual premise?

 

Odran is the SI. I don't recall being confused...he has to sacrifice someone to the Old Gods every now and again or he dies. What was there about shadows?

 

How is this relevant to anything? You were talking about the decay of institutional knowledge due to a lack of warfare. The War of Ninepenny Kings was in their lifetimes, and they would have seen it first hand.

The issue was in dislodging Tywin. Do note that I said "harry Tywin as he retreats", not "and destroy the Western army and capture Tywin".

I did bring this up rather specifically, which you ignored. Compare that scenario to the one in which Robb loses via his OTL plan - he's worse off, and I am contending that this is just as, if not more, likely.

Cool beans. Did I propose a series of unrealistic pitched battles or something?

-contrasted with doing this in the east. They are also entirely divorced from the immediate situation, which is what apparently had Robb in a tizzy.

That sounds like an excellent reason to go fight Tywin, push him into Harrenhal, and then have a force go relieve Riverrun - not that I think he would let himself be penned into Harrenhal when he could go to KL.

This is a shit plan, that worked only because GRRM made sure everything lined up perfectly. Robb made this huge decision based on a plan with no flexibility.



Of course, that is all tangential to the main thrust of my post, which was that at the Twins when faced with the demands from House Frey, Robb did have alternatives. Having the crossing let him do his "split my army in two and send the major part of it to go get raped while I play action hero, hopefully successfully", but he didn't need that crossing in an existential sense. Those alternatives should have been weighed against what House Frey was asking for.