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Complete Mother of Learning by nobody103 - T - Original Fantasy

Discussion in 'Original Fiction' started by Betosa, Apr 3, 2013.

  1. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    I think neglecting Zorian's emotional attachment to the fight was probably intentional, at least to a point.

    One of the things he was worried about early in the story is happening and we're seeing it. He's becoming a bit careless with his life. He's dismissing of the deaths of others, even those he somewhat cares for. He's becoming jaded.

    That said. I did get a muted feeling of panic when he thought Zach might be hit with a soul-affecting spell by the Lich when he was down. I did get a muted feeling of rage when he blew the guys head off who killed Xvim in front of him.

    So I was a little surprised I didn't get the same half-feeling from him when he saw Nochka... Nochka, who has in many restarts been his little sisters best friend, sitting naked with a collar in a cage traumatized and overcome with blind panic.

    Most of the fight I can see Zorian being emotionally detached from. He's not afraid of dying, he's not afraid of his comrades dying, and he's not afraid of failing. He wants to succeed but he's not invested in it either.

    But I agree maybe there could have been a little more. Zorian hasn't been a part of a pitched battle of that size before, at least not while he was considered to be one of their more elite members. There should have been excitement or anticipation at least.

    But all things considered I loved the chapter.

    Here's a heart-wrenching thing that I don't actually expect to happen... Xvim is actually dead. Dead dead. As in that spell was necromantic in origin. If that was the case then it would play really well into what I just pointed out about Zorian becoming jaded that everyone he cares about will always be fine. He was upset at the man's death, but he also dismissed it as no big deal, nothing permanent. It would hit him incredibly hard if he didn't turn up next loop.

    But we've already semi-confirmed that you can't 'soul kill' someone, and even if he was knocked out of the loop he'd still be alright later. There's no reason for that particular attacker to use that sort of spell. Plus I expect Xvim to be 'in' on the "let other people into the loop for a few goes" concept we have coming up.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2016
  2. Mishie

    Mishie Fat Dog

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    I felt that he subtly reacted to Nochka being there by basically just trying to block out her presence totally so that ir wouldn't help him, especially since he specifically checked the memories of the other two ablut their kidnapping and not hers.
     
  3. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    I read that differently, I guess.

    I read it as he was purely after the information, and he already knows who Nochka is, where she lives, and at which point in the time loop she gets kidnapped. So he didn't waste time finding out information he already had.
     
  4. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    On another note... do we have confirmation that Zorian's mental abilities give him improved recall?

    He's in a hurry. He should be borderline exhausted, having just participated in back-to-back battles of varying intensity. He spent a significant chunk of his reserves with an anti-teleportation ward. He nearly died without accomplishing anything just minutes before when he fell of the side, pulled himself up, and was saved from an attack by Xvim. Zach is engaging several mages nearby in what is probably not quiet combat. And right in front of him is an incredibly powerful ritual about to explode.

    Even taking into account that Zorian isn't worried about permanently dying... there is no way in hell he's operating at full capacity.

    Mind magic is his thing, so I can 100% get on board with him being really, really effective at it even in a less-than-ideal state. But remembering what is probably a lot of detail regarding names, goals, passwords, meeting places, addresses, etc?

    Unless there's precedent for that for Zorian specifically, and not just of the he's-good-at-school variety, I expect him to not remember a lot of it. Unless it's either an asspull or I forgot something.
     
  5. Mock Moniker

    Mock Moniker Professor

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    Don't you remember the cubes he kept throwing at Quatach?
    First one it's explicitly described how he throws it intentionally at him, and QI bats it away with magic without letting it touch him.

    I doubt they were just made to absorb attacks.

    Yeah, there's precedent. Him developing his memory was definitely covered at some point, and at this point he's deliberately ferrying around memories for Xvim, Alanic, Taiven, and Kael.

    Edit-- chapter 38, when he realized that he forgot large portions of the notes he memorized for Kael, he decides to work on his memory. In chapter 39, he looks up a bunch of spells, finds useful ones that are restricted to him -- Illsa teaches him a different method, but he still plans on stealing a library pass (which, IIRC, happens at some point later?) so that he can check those books out later, and then he casually memorizes Xvim's encrypted message to the next month's Xvim at a glance.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2016
  6. Tharkun

    Tharkun Second Year

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    On the other hand, getting information out of the leaders of the invasion was the main goal of the entire operation, isn't it? If Zorian is too tired to execute this part of the plan properly, he should have paced himself better earlier on: this is the only stage at which his particular skills are indispensable.

    That's how I read the earlier scenes: Zorian is conserving energy, with the exception of the anti-teleportation ward, mainly picking off low-hanging fruit like the battle lizards and mages without proper mind defenses. The others are basically defending him and trying to give him a shot at getting as much intel about the invasion leadership as possible, although only Alaric, Xvim and Zach may actually aware of this.

    Nearly falling off the platform might take a lot out of him mentally, even though he is used to dying by now. Conversely, I could also imagine it giving him an adrenaline boost, increasing his efficiency during a short period afterwards. Even so, I'm not saying I disagree with your point about remembering lots of details, but in world they must believe that Zorian can at least do a fair job at it. Otherwise, they shouldn't have embarked on the operation in the first place - unless it was meant to be a long shot, but it didn't feel like that to me.
     
  7. DooomCookie

    DooomCookie First Year

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    I agree with some of the criticisms of the writing style. The chapter had some really cool content, but it was hampered by the ploddiness. When enter the Hole, there's a whole paragraph methodically describing the platform, that I feel could have been better integrated into the action.

    I was also a bit surprised at his lack of reaction to Nochka. While he's shown an admirable ability to disassociate and focus (I really hate angsty and reactive protagonists), the way he casually dismissed the kids was surprising. He's been shown to have a very strong moral core, which he's retained throughout the loops. But OTOH, this was a combat situation, so I suppose he'd be running on adrenaline. Again, I feel the writing could have made that clearer.

    But I'm being overly critical. I really enjoyed this chapter, as a display of Zorian's progress and a chance for Xvim and Alanic to really let loose. So much was shown in this chapter: we learnt about Quatach Ichl, combat and soul magic, and more details of the ritual and the cultists. It was classic MoL, full of cute, funny and awesome moments.
     
  8. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    I don't count most of this.

    1. He's ferrying around memories in the form of storing them as literal notebooks. He doesn't have everything in them memorized. In fact probably hasn't bothered to read most of Kael's stuff lately.

    2. Memorizing one encrypted message in a casual setting where you aren't exhausted and under stress is a different situation.

    3. The spells he looked up that were specific to him might qualify... thanks for the chapter reference so I can check it out after work. Much appreciated.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2016
  9. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    Your argument is based on story concept, which is valid, but... I'm trying to figure out if I consider the author to have dropped the ball here, not characters within the story.

    Normal people cannot memorize that amount of information easily. Zorian's mental abilities and past training might very well account for it, but I can't remember specifics of when it was covered.

    Because if he manages to magically remember all of that without it having been foreshadowed that he's capable of that then it will feel to me like the author dropped the ball.

    Granted it could be dealt with next chapter in a scene where... Zorian was really glad he'd taken the time to do X and Y for recall about two dozen loops ago...

    But at the moment it feels like an asspull unless I'm missing something other than what Mock Monitor mentioned (which doesn't seem to address the specific ability in question).
     
  10. thattin

    thattin Second Year

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    It's mentioned somewhere when he was raiding the aranean settlements to improve his mind magic? He says that he now can permanently memorise anything he sets his mind to or something, but the notebooks were still better for transferring the research for his friends. I'll try to find the chapter.

    Edit: Chapter 48, paragraph starting "The Mind Temple" ... "His skills at making memory packets were good enough by now that he would never really forget anything he tried to remember"
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2016
  11. Zel

    Zel High Inquisitor

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    Damn, Xvim was a badass in this one. Even QI stopped and went 'The actual fuck?'. Pity he died to the yellow Avada Kedavra.

    Regarding Zorian's carelessness with other people's lives, it seems to be working on slippery slope premise. Began when he started forming connections with people just so he could learn their craft, now it's going to the point where he'll probably mentally assault experienced mages to 'steal' their skills.
     
  12. CleanRag

    CleanRag Professor

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    Zorian's memory abilities are also mentioned at the start of 54, this time without mention of memory packets. He says he memorized the entire meeting with the Ghost Serpent with the aid of mind magic.

    Also I remember reading way back near the beginning, chapter eight I think,that all mages are given a basic grounding in mnemonic techniques to help with focus etc. Before studying mind magic Zorian felt comfortable memorizing the magic missile invocation and gestures after seeing Zach perform it once. Really that level of recall alone should be enough to memorize that information, no mind magic required.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2016
  13. Celestin

    Celestin Dimensional Trunk

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    The battle was really good in my opinion. It showed exactly what kind of badass Zorian already is with his own abilities and he even casually states it when considering his and Zach's roles in the battle.

    I wouldn't be surprised if in few years he could fight alone with Ichl and win, if only because he's going to be really familiar with the lich's magic and he's much better with planning his fights than Zach. In other words, he's Batman with unlimited prep time when the other looper is Superman. ;)

    Other thing I liked was that all five main combatants clearly had their specializations that made them equally dangerous in very different ways. Xvim's mastery of defensive magic was especially impressive, but how he protected Zorian with his own body made him even more respectable in my opinion.

    Though Zorian really needs to examine his detachment from current events. I get that it's just a loop, but as at the very beginning he was aware of the risk that constant dying causes to his psych and behaviour, treating everyone else but Zach as expendables could cause similar damage.

    The next chapter should have some big revelations about the summing.
     
  14. Heleor

    Heleor EsperJones DLP Supporter

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    Another update. Not so many big revelations as Celestin wanted, but it does address the detachment.

    Mostly filler, although it goes over Veyers Boranova and has Zach and Zorian become thieves a la A Black Comedy.

    Odds that the time dilation chamber goes wrong in some way? Or is that a sucker bet?
     
  15. Celestin

    Celestin Dimensional Trunk

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    I suspect it will go wrong, but only for Zach. ;)

    I would say that there were enough revelations in this chapter, even if nothing was really groundbreaking. And while some will complain it was too much tell instead of show, it's good that Zorian is having many adventures in a background allowing him to gain experience and discover useful things.
     
  16. Celestin

    Celestin Dimensional Trunk

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    A random prediction that fits with the author's style of including info way before it becomes relevant. The simulacrum spell is in a lair of a dragon that Zach defeated in early chapters.
     
  17. One

    One Second Year

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    I would actually bet money on Zorian. Has he ever been so cut off from everyone on the mental plane for such an extended period of time? He'll be getting almost no feedback on one of his senses for a full moth. He's lucky he went in there with Zach.

    That would be hilarious, actually.
     
  18. Heleor

    Heleor EsperJones DLP Supporter

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  19. Majube

    Majube Order Member DLP Supporter

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    "Mind magic, soul magic, and now blood magic," Zach said. "it's like you're trying to be as sinister as possible..."
    Dark Lord Zorian confirmed.
     
  20. oakes

    oakes Unspeakable DLP Supporter

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    I get the feeling that Zach is the simulacrum...