I know Anti-Christ is commonly understood to be some kind of super-evil version of Jesus, but that originally the word just meant a deciever and denouncer of Jesus Christ. The wiki article you linked covers all sorts of mentions and variations of Anti-Christ.

 

If you're going to talk about originally, then every fucking thing means something completely different. For instance, there's barely a word in the English language that was not once slang for vagina at some point and some place in the English countryside.

These days, Antichrist means the goddamn evil-mirror-of-Christ, BFFs with the Dragon, the Beast, the False Prophet and the Whore of Babylon, Antifuckingchrist. The only way to not understand that is to deliberately misunderstand it to show oh how fucking superior you are because you don't get caught up in these linguistic trends, you stick with the original meanings.

In short, stop being a goddamn douchebag and dragging the conversation to a goddamn halt just to show the fuck off in a way that just reveals you to be a complete and utter twatbucket.

 

Actually, it doesn't. Sure, the bampire in Thomas' short story was physically powerful after just a year. Being fast and strong is basically part and parcel of being a level one baddy in Dresden-verse. Thomas could do that too. So could any vampire it seems. Don't cherry pick abilities to make them seem more powerful than they are. I think Mavra is excellent at surviving, and that's why she managed to avoid Ebenezer. We have no guarantee that it was her pitting her magic against McCoy's being what let her pull the wool over them. Maybe she was just hiding behind the door. And as you said, McCoy is the most directly dangerous. This wasn't a direct confrontation. If she managed to trick the Gatekeeper, then we'd be talking, as Jim has said that he is the most dangerous of the Senior Council. Period. Dresden estimated that she was maybe wizard level in strength. As we've seen, its not how much juice you have, its how you use it.

Mavra is never going to go toe to toe magically with a SC member. Probably not even with Dresden. She didn't kill Dresden at the graveyard because he scared her. Mavra seems the type to avoid confrontation whenever she can.

Your second point: Mavra isn't stupid enough to try doing anything like that. Not only would it be ineffective, it'd be suicidal. She'd not only bring down the wrath of pretty much every major power in the magical world, but would arouse the mortals against her as well. There's a reason the Black Court was basically wiped out before, and Mavra doesn't strike me as the type to repeat actions proven to fail. While the Black Court vampires are ridiculously powerful, they also have some very blatant and well known weaknesses. Hell, Lara killed one with a shoe. The only thing they really have going for them is the element of surprise. Any group prepared for them is going to mop the floor with them, Buffy style.

 

True, but when you factor in the fact that one or more Nickelhead is working towards that goal, plus the involvement of the Watchman, and the whole Dresden=Jesus metaphor, it's not terribly outrageous to expect an at least somewhat literal interpretation of the Revelation in that final trilogy.

It's all just speculation, but it definitely makes sense from where I'm standing.

 

I agree with Sol on this one, every one keeps talking about how she avoided McCoy but no one seems to consider that McCoy could have been holding back a bit so he didn't accidentally kill somebody by mistake like you know his Grandson.

 

No, man. I mean, sure, it's a possibility, but no more so than Ragnarok or a Sidhe-victory hot or cold apocalypse or the Mayan calendar counting down to zero or Cthulhuesque Outsiders crawling out of the woodwork or any number of other end-of-the-world scenarios. There's way, way, way too many elements at work in Dresden Files to consider the presence of Christian elements to be proof positive that a given apocalypse will be biblical.

And besides, considering the amount of rapture nuts out there (and before anyone asks, I'm near certain that that website is completely serious) with decades of experience in sucking the fun out of anything and everything, it'd probably be a smarter move for Butcher to keep well away from the Book of Revelation.

 

You're mostly correct, especially with regards to the fundamentalist Christians. And I actually agree that he should stay away from it.

The last couple books, however, have created a fairly direct parallel between Jesus and Dresden. It's certainly possible that it was unintentional, but with the way Butcher's books tend to be well thought out on almost every level, I can't see that really happening. It just seems most likely that the whole series is being set up to culminate in Armageddon.

 

Could just as easily argue that they created a fairly direct parallel between Odin and Dresden. Or any number of other historical, semi-historical or mythological messianic figures. You're so hung up on this particular tree that you're ignoring the forest.

 

Could be, but Odin certainly didn't wield the power of Creation or come back from the dead. Especially that second bit, as according to that religion all of humanity is being used to build an army for the futile effort to prevent him from dying in the first place.

Plus, just about every major step in Dresden's evolution has had some relation to YHWH. The Swords of the Cross, and the requisite lessons he learns in their acquisition, Soulfire, death and reincarnation. All of these directly tie into Christianity and the White God. I could probably come up with more from the other books, but it's been a while since I re-read them last.

And the various other mythological figures that fit that profile are so old and nearly forgotten that it's unlikely they will factor in. They could, certainly, appear in the books but every mythological figure in the Dresden-verse thus far is commonly known (by name, if nothing else).

It's fully possible that I'm wrong, but so far all the evidence I can see supports my conclusion. If you know of anything that contradicts me, feel free to share. We're all just speculating on who the Final Boss is, and some form of Christianity's Big Bad makes the most sense to me from the evidence provided.

 

He sort of died and come back to life when he sacrificed himself in order to get the wisdom. He was hung from the world tree Yggdrasil for nine days and nights, pierced by his own spear.

 

He created the first human beings, Ask and Embla.

He sacrificed himself to himself (no, really) by hanging himself from Yggdrasil, the World Tree, for nine days and piercing himself with his spear. And thereby discovered the magic of runes, by the way.

What? Odin knows he's destined to die from being swallowed whole by Fenrir at Ragnarok. The army isn't to save his arse, it's to buy enough time for Sól to bear a daughter so Líf and Lífþrasir (Adam and Eve / Ask and Embla, take two) can survive the Fimbulvetr, and therefor for humanity and the surviving gods (and possibly a resurrected Baldr) to live happily ever after. But Odin's toast.

He's not reincarnated yet, kiddo, don't go giving credit to the White God just yet. And where the fuck did you get YHWH from? I don't think any Jewish mythology's shown up in DF, let alone something like YHWH being the proper name of the White God.


Long story short, you fail Norse mythology forever.

 

Apparently. That's what I get for not doing all my research. All I really know about Norse mythology is the common stuff and the contents of the Prose Edda. If those stories are true, and I'll take your word that they are, then yea it could fit.

That doesn't explain the fairly heavy slant towards Christian mythology in the Dresden-verse though. The most prominent mythos in the entire Dresden-verse are Christianity and the old (I wanna say Celtic) myths about the land of Faerie and the war between Mab and Titania/Oberon. It also doesn't explain why Uriel takes a fairly strong interest in Dresden individually.

As for the last quote, Dresden is almost certainly going to be reincarnated. We know for sure he'll somehow have a way to interact with the physical realm for another 10 books. That means he's either the most badass ghost ever, or he gets reincarnated. The latter seems significantly more likely.

And I used YHWH simply because it's a tendency of my own when referring to the Abrahamic god. I wasn't trying to bring up anything about Judaism.

 

Um... did I miss something? When did reincarnation become a Christian gig? I was under the impression that that was more a Hindu/Buddhist/Sikhist shtick. What Jesus did is more 'resurrection'. If you're going to argue theology, get the terminology down pat first.

And I'm fairly sure that Harry's rising from the dead isn't going to be miraculous. Chances are it'll be more bartered from the major powers-that-be or whipped up after skimming through the Word of Kemmler. And all your other talking points to try to line up Harry and Jesus are reeeeeeeally stretching it, and the ones that are there are so vague they could be applied to any one of a dozen mythological/historical figures.

You say taking care of the Swords makes him Jesusish? I say Merlinish. You say his (coming) resurrection is Jesusish? I say Odinesque. Soulfire? He's used hellfire, but you're not stitching him as the Antichrist. He's used Summer's fire, but he's not Oberon. Winter ice, but he's not Santa. Necromancy, but he's not Kemmler. I could go on. But no, the one you've latched on to is the one that's tenuously related to the White God because it backs your pet theory (even though I don't remember Jesus ever throwing soulfire around, but then again I haven't read the Bible for a while).

 

You're correct with regard to reincarnation, word lysdexia strikes again.

As for rising from the dead, there's no other way for it to happen other than miraculously. Necromancy in the Dresdenverse animates a body, it doesn't bring them back to life. It's theoretically possible that Mab or some other major player might have the ability to resurrect the dead, but it's highly unlikely. It's not been demonstrated by anyone thus far (Kumori being the only exception and that's definitely debatable), and if it was possible (by someone who would resurrect Dresden), the odds are quite good they would have used it before and someone would know about it.

Finally, I didn't say that taking the swords was Jesusish. I said it was tied in fairly tightly with Christian mythology, as are several of the major steps in Dresden's growth. All I am saying is that there is a heavy slant towards Christian mythology in the Dresdenverse, and several of Dresden's major changes are at the very least peripherally based in Christian mythos. That leads me to believe the final trilogy will be based on the Christian Armageddon.

Assuming that conclusion is true, it is not a tremendous leap to reach the "Dresden will fight the Beast" bit.

It's one alternative out of several that could take place in the final trilogy. It requires making an assumption, but it's a reasonable one based on the evidence provided, and the steps following that are all logically sound. It's just as likely as any other theory at this point, so I don't see why you're getting so upset about it.

 

Obviously, the rosey tint to your glasses is because you've filled them with sacramental wine. You're completely obsessed with this Christian thing and utterly unwilling to see that you're grasping at straws and making world-record-breaking leaps of what I'll charitably call deduction. I've spent the last four posts refuting every point you've made and pointing out that the Christian influence is outweighed by about a dozen other flavours and you're still saying that your way is the clear answer, despite not having any more arguments to offer.

Congratulations. You repeated yourself until the other side gave up in disgust.

 

No he'll fight together with the Beast against Azathoth. Seems pretty clear to me.

 

I'm not saying mine is the clear answer. It's no more or less viable a conclusion than Ragnarok, or Faerie exploding or whatever "End of the World" scenario you want to name will take place in the final trilogy.

All I am saying is that Christianity seems to be the major player, theistically speaking, and in the absence of further evidence it makes logical sense that the Biblical Armageddon ending the series is on the likely side of possible.

Forget the whole Jesus thing for a bit, and at least acknowledge that it is fully possible, if not necessarily likely, for the final trilogy to chronicle Armageddon.

Assuming that were to happen, it is not a large leap in logic to conclude that the main character would end up fighting against the Big Bad. In this case, it would be Dresden versus the Anti-Christ.

That's basically all I've been trying to get at.

And all you've argued for the last few posts is basically "No, that's completely impossible because it could also be X, Y or Z." This is where I get confused, because you're getting pissed off that I proposed a theory that is logically sound based entirely on the supposition that alternatives exist.

 

No, you've been arguing that the Christian endgame is the most likely one:

Whereas I've been presenting the counterpoint that it seems to be hovering steady around 20% chance (at the very most, and discounting the inherent RL drama from writing it), fighting for prominence against Outsiders at 30, faeries at 10 per court, Kemmler/Kemmlerites at 10, Ragnarok at 20 and various bits and bobs making up the remainder.

[Congratulations! Your ARGUMENT is evolving!

Your ARGUMENT evolved into META-ARGUMENT!]

(In no other sport does the end-game involve arguing over where the goalposts were. Lo, what a fabulous age we live in...)

 

If you'll recall, necromancy isn't just bodies; it's anything related to the dead, spirits especially. Also recall that Harry himself brought a dead soul back from the afterlife and used it to animate a body. Fair enough that body was of a T-Rex, but the same principle applies. Ectomancy as well deals with the souls of the dead.

Also, Kemmler came back from the dead. Thrice.

Personally, I'd like to think the Outsiders/Old Gods returning are going to be the cause of the Apocalypse, or at least the result of it, because I'm a bit of a Lovecraftian fanboy. We've already established that Harry has power over them, which makes him the Saviour figure, we've got a powerful Outsider possibly released into the real world because of the events of White Night, and we've got a Black Council that has been connected multiple times with the use of Outsiders (I'm thinking especially that Lord Raith had to get his HWWB ritual from somewhere).

Still, a second Black Plague could work, and I still think you're underestimating the pure force of numbers the Black Court could bring to bare on the modern world in little under a week. I mean, I assume you've watched/read zombie apocalypse fiction before, and Black Court vamps are basically über zombies. Even against a foe that knows all your weaknesses, having the ability to turn the dead to your cause (especially if Mavra learns how to turn necromancy to her own power) and numbers in the hundred millions in under a week trumps pretty much every advantage. To quote Josef Stalin; "Quantity has a quality of its own."

 

Yes, I'm saying the Christian Apocalypse seems the most likely to me, for reasons already stated. I'm not discounting anything at this point, just trying to convey something I've been mulling over.

That said, the fact of the matter is that in the Dresdenverse the Christian mythos has a hell of a lot of sway. Anyone associated with YHWH ends up as a player in their own right, even vanilla mortals, and Archangels are a whole other level of ridiculous. It stands to reason that if the world was going to end, it would end the way they decided it would.

This is all pure speculation, but it is logically rigorous. The only other faction that we know has influence enough to possibly even the field is the Faerie Courts.

Also, the Kemmlerites are all dead, excepting Cowl and possibly Kumori. I can't be certain, but barring somehow repeating the Darkhallow and/or getting some seriously heavy hitters on the Black Council, Cowl's not likely to end the world.

Edit: I actually quite like the idea of a Black Court trying to take over the world, but it's unlikely to happen. You don't live as long as Mavra has without an extremely heavy dose of survival instinct. She's not going to do anything that puts herself at risk.

PS - I would most prefer the Apocalypse to be of the Outsiders pouring into reality type. It's definitely up there on the list of possibilities, and I'd much prefer that to rehashing Revelations. It just doesn't strike me as as likely.

Edit 2: Are we sure Kemmler came back from the dead? I know it was "officially concluded" that he had died three times, but it would make a lot more sense if he merely faked his death. If only because if Necromancy could bring the dead back to life, someone else would have done it already.