Israel/Palestine Mega Thread

Discussion in 'Politics' started by mknote, Jun 21, 2013.

  1. Evil Shnitzel

    Evil Shnitzel High Inquisitor

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    1) You claimed before that if people want to discriminate against AJ as part of Qatari government they should also ban PSG and Qatar Airways. I just agreed, the way PSG is run should not be legal.
    2) You implied that Israel is similar to Erdogan/Chavez and will not hesitate to use such measures.
    3) AJ have practiced in this for years now and kind of perfected the system. Their news in English are toned down and have a liberal theme (as can be seen in AJ+ videos) unlike the news in Arabic. Also, a lot of organizations are not banned in Europe/USA' that doesn't make them not-terrorist. If I'm not mistaken (welcome to correct me on this) Hezbollah is also not banned in many countries and was not banned in US until few years ago. People were walking with their flags in center of London recently and nobody gave a fig. I'm not claiming AJ are terrorists themselves, but they are under total control of a state that does financially support it.
    About the Prime Minister, you are mistaken with the previous one, who withdrew his support once the violence and racist attitude within the fan group grew. But hey if there is a chance to bash Israel why not eh? By "condemned murderer" I assume you mean the soldier that shot dead the injured terrorist. Yup, you are totally right on this one. The inciting violence thing is mutual and hopefully eventually the government would be replaced and things would change. Media outlets like AJ contribute to feelings of isolation and hatred towards the country, which just makes it easier for assholes like Netanyahu to push more for nationalistic policies.
    4) Well if it's the only powerful Arab outlet we should keep it no? Even when it's 100% wrong? Sorry that's not an excuse.
    5) Where does he say it is because of the Saudi's? He mentions them once as an afterthought, not as the direct reason. As I said previously, it is most likely a publicity stunt for the Israeli public, which AJ btw is happy to use, that just gives them more ammunition and ground to misportray the events.

    Also, Egypt, Iraq, India and USA had problems with AJ in the past too, sometimes suspending its broadcast and arresting (in one case at least) its journalists for inciting hatred. So not only Israel and Gulf states.
    As I mentioned in my first reaction to this post - I am conflicted about this decision. It is a slippery slope and I am interested in all opinions having representation in the media. AJ though make it extremely different. I don't remember where you are from (Scotland?) but just imagine seeing lies and mistruths about your country daily and seeing the effect it has on neutral people who read this. It is not an enviable place to be in.
     
  2. Invictus

    Invictus Fourth Champion

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    So US intelligence agencies are dumb enough not to know about AJ Arab parts, and focus only on those in English. I'm also curious. Literally none of the sourced I saw claimed Bibi stopped supporting the team. Please. Do link.

    Oh. Oh. He mentions thr Saudis as a justificaton, but it's not a justificaton justification for reals. Not at all. So it doesn't count. K.

    Egypt. Iraq. Those Lumineers of Justice. And I'm sure India is completely fair with people it deems Pakistani supporters.

    I mean. I never claimed anything about Israel arresting anyone over minor things. Why you're so focused on that? The Chavez/Erdogan route is obviously start closing down newspapers it dislikes or support other side. Chavez wasn't Maduro. Stop insisting on this. Chavez himself never went full crazy goat. And erdogan isn't jailing Kurds for being Kurds. Yet.

    Look. Israel claims to be a democracy. A free and fair and complete one. Unilaterally banning a news channel that tis widely seen as the Arab's main voice, without proper trials condemning it for crimes recently, doing completely and not just, you know the Arab part since the English one is apparently decent, is fucking fishy. It's pretty obvious doesn't really prize free press. Had it prized, it could come up with a much stronger list of proof and investigations of those events you mentioned and released it. It doesn't seem to think it should justify itself. Finally, the fact that Israel didn't completely cut ties with Qatar, has ties with the Saudis and other things, show this isn't about sponsoring terrorism but shutting down media you dislike.
     
  3. Evil Shnitzel

    Evil Shnitzel High Inquisitor

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    I'm not claiming that I or Israeli government know something that "US intelligence agencies" don't know. As I stated previously, not banning or doing something about a problem doesn't necessarily mean that a problem doesn't exist.
    About the football team - I assumed you meant Olmert, the previous Prime Minister, who is a famous supporter. Bibi is apparently a supporter himself (nobody really considers him as a football fan) but here is a quote of him disavowing the racist arson of the offices of the team after they signed two Muslim players -
    link - http://edition.cnn.com/2013/02/08/world/meast/israel-football-arson/index.html?hpt=imi_c2
    I agree that not enough is done about them.

    The guy who briefly mentioned Saudis as I have previously stated (again) does not mention them as the reason for the whole thing. He mentions the recent tensions on Temple Mountain though as I said, I believe it is a publicity stunt. Not even sure that they will be able to carry it out.

    What's a "Maduro"? And I am not insisting on that, just looking at you bringing up those two guys and saying that Israeli government is becoming like them. In my opinion that is quite far fetched. Certain elements spring up recently but it's still a very long way to go. You take one incident which didn't even happen yet and blow it out of proportion. They are btw two of the most hated figures here, I think even more than Putin or the Iran leaders.

    Again, it didn't happen. This comms Minister might have said few things and released a shutdown order but since as you have stated Israel is a democracy this will probably not fly down with the court and nothing will happen. Reminds a lot of your previous post in this thread when you brought up another populist law which obviously didn't pass and was nothing more than a publicity stunt.
     
  4. Invictus

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    From "publicity stunt" to "publicity stunt" it's how we got Venezuela. I'm not even exaggerating. Chavez relied on whipping up crowds against an "enemy", kept whipping them up against the Courts and Press for a decade until he had clout enough clout to just do it. The fact that all of them have the stamp of approval of the governing parties and PM should worry you. A lot. But if you want to keep dismissing those attacks and attempts at eroding institutions as ultimately inconsequential, hey. That's on you.

    Israel isn't the US. It doesn't have nearly the history, the flexibility and checks and balances to sustain the attacks on is it's institutions of the like of Trump. And Bibi has been at it a lot longer and more about than Trump. Of course, you might also think this is an exaggeration and Israel institutions did not suffer at all under Bibi. I do find it interesting that if an Arab channel does it, it's supporting and inciting terrorism. Banning them is a feasible answer. Of the government does it, it's a publicity stunt and ultimately incosequential and people worried about are ultimately blowing smoke out of their ass.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
  5. Evil Shnitzel

    Evil Shnitzel High Inquisitor

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    People are worried and protesting this bullshit daily (including le me) in front of Attorney General's house. Sooner or later (hopefully sooner) Bibi will have to resign (remember, 3 very serious investigations). You don't have much faith in our judicial system but I do have some; after Prime Minister and a President who were sent to jail. Bibi can cling to his seat but once again, this is not Venezuela. Sorry if you are Venezuelan citizen and you suffer/ed.
     
  6. Invictus

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    Brazilian. Seen Venezuela from close. Seen Judiciary cleaning up here, only to be stopped from the most extreme cleaning by corrupt and self serving Legislative and Executive. You're right I'm definitely projecting. Good luck for you. At least Israel has some hope, it seems.
     
  7. Arthellion

    Arthellion Ban(ned) Arthellion

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  8. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony Prestige

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    It does at least raise a valid point that the two-state solution has always seemed more like wishful thinking than an actual effective solution.
     
  9. Invictus

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    Pretty much. It's unworkable from any kind of practical point of view. Economically it doesn't work, politically East Jerusalem under such a corrupt and weak institution as the OLP would be a nightmare, also two fucking tiny enclaves of land not connected, etc etc. What the Palestinians need are to be granted full citizen rights in Israel and actual protection by the state, and not to be seen as security threats.
     
  10. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony Prestige

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    Pretty sure that, at least as an official matter of law, Israel has offered Palestinians full citizenship and rights. A lot of the Palestinians flat-out refuse to accept, since that would mean acknowledging that end of the Palestinian state and/or legitimizing Israel's conquest.

    Now, there's a huge difference between what's officially written in Israeli law and the reality on the ground. 70 years of off-and-on Israeli-Arab warfare makes trust pretty damn hard to achieve. It's a self-perpetuating cycle at this point: conflict stems from the lack of trust, and nobody trusts each other because they've been fighting for so long.

    The unfortunate reality is that Israel treats the Palestinians as a security threat because some of them are security threats. Just because they have an incredibly paranoid security state doesn't mean they don't have enemies.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
  11. Invictus

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    Does this seems like the kind of law that passes where any of them are actually equal, de facto and de jure? And as far as I'm aware, Israel only granted blanket citizenship to those who lived in Palestine prior to the 1948 War.

    And the last part of your post, I'm sorry, it's just a pile of shit. It's like something straight out of Korematsu vs United States actually. "Doesn't mean they don't have enemies" really? So the UK should've just rounded up the Catholics and put them in ghettos during The Troubles? Like.

    1,600 Israeli died in Israel-Palestine related conflicts between 2000-2011. In Israel on average 250-80 people die every year from traffic-related deaths. That's twice as many deaths. Are cars national securities?

    Then of course you have the fact if all Palestinians should be treated as a security threat, because some of them are, then of course Israelis are security threats to Palestinians. And since the Palestinians don't have an army, it's national security is enforced by paramilitary groups, which, of course, should be justified in treating Israeli and specially colonists as security threats and remove them forcefully, by any means necessary. Which would in general create a peachy situation. After all, the Palestinians have enemies.
     
  12. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Those are false equivalences, the situation in Israel viz. Palestine is very different.
     
  13. Invictus

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    Oh? Then please explain how the Israeli government worries are completely different from the worries the US Government had after the Niihau Incident.

    As seen in the article:
    So it begs the question, this incident, which was definitely an important factor on Korematsu, is completely different from what the Israel government worries about Palestinians? If so, then please explain it to me, because I can't see.
     
  14. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    For one thing, Palestinians from the territories are not integrated members of Israeli society. So unlike Korematsu, you aren't rounding up your own citizens because you think their loyalties are divided.

    Second, the elected government of half of those territories is an avowed terrorist organization whose stated goal is to destroy Israel by any means necessary, and the elected government of the other half is only not that because they don't think it's practical, not because they wouldn't if they could.

    I frequently criticise Israel for acting heavy-handedly, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking they don't have a point when they say the Palestinians are a security threat.
     
  15. Invictus

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    First thing, we're talking about giving them full citizenship, in case you haven't read the discussion, so your first premise doesn't really apply to my point (also funny that it's the state of Israel that collects the taxes and money from the Palestinian territories and then it passes to (or it doesn't when it doesn't like something) to the OLP, Israeli troops also occupy most of those same territories, but I'm sure throwing Israeli government has no responsibilities to these people) .

    Second, the Japanese Imperial government was at war with the US, so... Well, they're in kinda similar situations I that regard Hamas from a security threat POV.

    I love how you didn't address my point that situation isn't different, which you claim it is, and then promptly starts to talk about anything I said. You talk about Palestinians not being citizens, which was the first thing addressed, so I advise you to read things before jumping on them, then you talk about the Palestinian government being terrorists, which I'm sure it's much much worse than the nation that uh, did Pearl Harbor. Third, oh congrats on discovering that, you can either point out that I said no Palestinians are a security threat or how what happened in the Niihau incident was a threat to security, which was my point.

    So revan, can you actually address how completely different the US government worries on the Niihau Incident and the Israeli government worries about Palestinians.
     
  16. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    Japan wasn't a semi-occupied territory of the US at the time, they were a far-away full fledged empire nation-state. And the incident you reference was a one-off, not a representative example of a near-constant barrage of guerilla terrorist attacks.

    If a tactically significant portion of the Japanese-American population had been constantly in the shadows executing attacks inside the US, then the US government would have been entirely justified in what it did. They weren't. That's the whole reason Korematsu is held up as unjustified.

    Israel, on the other hand, is not wrong to view Palestine as a threat to its security. The prevalence of Palestinian terrorism is evidence enough of that.
     
  17. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony Prestige

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    The timescales involved are also highly relevant. The US and Japan had only been politically opposed for a few years, and at war for months when the internments started happening. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been going on for 70+ years.
     
  18. Arthellion

    Arthellion Ban(ned) Arthellion

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    Centuries if you consider biblical accounts
     
  19. Invictus

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    Huh, you're actually arguing that Pearl Harbor wasn't traumatic enough to trigger justifiable reactions, unlike the Palestinians campaign against Israelis. That's a retarded line of arguing if I ever saw one.

    Revan's defense line is my favorite however, it's basically Trump's Muslim Ban. Hell, Afghans, Iraqis and Iranians in the US should be denied citizenships thanks to their history with the US.

    Oh yeah Revan. How's the Israeli-Palestinian situations also different from the Troubles. The other thing you claimed? Instead of doing empty one liners as full of holes as your (proven) wrong affirmations that the GOP went hard right, try to actually engage and prove your points.

    Hell, you're even making my own point. Korematsu was horrendous because it was an incident that was not representative of the wider population and yet treated all of them like criminals (it being a one off incident only makes the logic more insidious, not different)

    Well, so, to you, the average Palestinian is a terrorist. That's what you're claiming? Then why are you insulting Trump's foreign policy regarding ME? Don't you think it's hypocritical to defend the logic used by his Muslim bans, his promise to have all Muslim Americans under surveillance, you defend that Palestinians are all terrorists or potential terrorists enough that they should premeditatedly treated like that, that Israel doesn't have any responsibilities towards Palestinians, among other things. Seems like a match made in heaven.
     
  20. Darth_Revan

    Darth_Revan Secret Squirrel Prestige DLP Supporter

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    No... I never said anything like that. Pearl Harbor was any attack conducted by a foreign military, not by the Japanese-American population of Hawaii.

    Except that those people aren't actually a threat. Which is why the justification doesn't hold water.

    It's actually a lot closer to that than it was with Korematsu. You'll notice that at the time Northern Ireland was under military occupation by the British Army for much the same reason.

    Whatever, dude. Ask any political strategist in DC the question and they'll tell you the same thing.

    Enough are that the threat is a real one, and has to be dealt with accordingly.

    It's not hypocritical at all; Trump's situation is based on something which isn't real, the Israeli situation is real. Act accordingly.
     
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