I've been considering writing a HP/ASoIaF crossover lately. Although the probability of it going somewhere is tiny, the idea stuck in my head and I'm forced to deal with it. It would be a typical 'Harry is transported to another universe' kind of crossover and my question relates to that. How would you have Harry grow magically when stranded from the Wizarding World?

I found my answers to the question unsatisfactory in one way or another.

The simplest way would be having Harry discover stuff by himself. My problem with that is the likelihood that magic would come up as too easy, discovering something tends to be much harder than learning it, after all. If the new magic is a more advanced version of something else (like much of transfiguration seems to be) them progression could be achieved in a believable way, provided it took enough time. But for things closer to being completely new to the protagonist, such as enchanting, not so much. Not without getting into Wish Magic's department.

Another would be having Harry somehow bring a bunch of useful books with him. Never leave home without carrying a library in your pocket in case you are whisked away to another dimension. Needless to say, this is batbelt level of contrivance. It would alleviate the previous idea weakness, though.

My third option would be bringing a knowledgeable companion. Likely in the form of the Resurrection Stone. Having a pocket Dumbledore would do wonders to one's magical learning, but I feel like it would be too great of an advantage. Not so much from the magical aspect, the gap of power between a HP wizard and anyone in Westeros is so big that some tutoring wouldn't make all that much of a difference. But from a political perspective it would be too advantageous having the counsel of the Supreme Mugwump and it would also take a bit of Harry's agency in that aspect. Also, having a bunch of ghost buddies to socialize would take Harry further away from the Westerosi and their squabbling.

Lastly is giving Harry a background that includes learning magic beyond his canon self (discounting the Epilogue, of course). This one was my initial idea, Harry would have travelled the world after a brief stint as an Auror and learned all sorts of magic (many superficially, to allow further growing). The problem of this one would be the characterization, it wouldn't be a known Harry, but one with an unspecified background who learned and matured off-screen. I fear that there it would lend to either too much telling about his past or flashbacks to show it. The latter would be better but it would take too much from the main story. And like the book one, it could easily lead to contrivance in a "luckily I know the perfect spell for this" way.

So, which one is better? Or less worse? A fifth option would be appreciated.

 

Why not a mix of 1 and 2. Have the event that throws Harry through dimensions occur after he takes his children shopping for hogwarts (Three kids offers a large enough scattering of levels) or after a raid at a Dark wizards house (Those books look supicious!! better confiscate them)

Sort of like the Princes potion book he can extrapolate from there, using the books and half remembered conversations with Hermione etc to develop things in what ever direction you wish.

Then again for your plot does Harry really need to grow magically? Stunner, expelliarmus, apparition, portkeys, obliviate, basic wards (repellent/alarm) along with his magical constitution shouldn't require too much extra magic.

 

I'm assuming you want to send Harry in ASOIAF after his Hogwarts years. In that case, he really does not need to grow magically. His magic is simple enough. I wouldn't recommend making Harry travel after DH, unless you can really pull off his characterization and not make him a gary sue following his discovery of 'exotic magic'.

Adult!Harry in ASOIAF would be able to survive easily enough. A challenge would be to put Child!Harry with basic magical knowledge into that world. Sure he knows how to levitate, warm himself and maybe transfigure a teacup into a tortoise but that's it. Magical progression would make sense if you go this avenue.

 

I think option number one is best -- Harry creates his own magic, exploring his powers and using them in ways he invents for himself. This is perfect for a crossover like ASOIAF, because someone with the abilities of a Hogwarts graduate would completely stomp that universe. Between apparition and the Imperius curse you could have control of all Westeros in a day if you wanted.

Having Harry invent his own magic allows you to customise his magical skillset to be useful and impactful but not OP. It also allows the magic to feel more thematically unified with the destination universe, because the tools and processes he creates to cast magic will be influenced, at least in part, by the ideas and resources of the culture in which he finds himself. Of course the nature of Harry's power is unique in the ASOIAF universe, in both its versatility and cost-free use, but that doesn't mean certain ideas and tools couldn't be adapted from ASOIAF sorcery to wield Harry's brand of magic.

The best way to avoid Wish Magic is to keep this in mind:

This is something I think is clear: with few exceptions (basically, accidental magic), wizardry requires external tools to cast spells of any real complexity.

These tools act as symbols to express a wizard's meaning. A spell is essentially a magical manifestation of an idea, an idea which the wizard has in their mind and uses tools to express. Trying to cast magic without such tools would be like trying to speak to someone without talking. The only reliable way to take an idea out of your mind and into the outside world is to express it externally.

Wands and incantations are the most powerful of these, as Ollivander states, but we have seen other examples of how wizards can use external tools to express meaning and thus cast magic. The most prominent example is Potions, which is rather analogous to a spell cast with a wand. The ingredients are like the wand: physical objects with magical significance which the wizard uses to externalise their magical power. Similarly, the brewing process is rather like an incantation: a human-made way of showing specific intent.

We're drifting off-topic, but it's my headcanon that "rituals" (a largely fanon idea) are not a separate area of magic from Charms, Transfiguration, etc. Rather, all magic is a ritual of one kind of another. "Ritual" is just another word for "spell": a process of magical significance, generally utilising tools, which has a specific meaning and results in a specific magical effect that reflects that meaning.

With this idea in mind, it shouldn't be hard to see how a wandless, magically ignorant Harry stuck in a world without access to HP knowledge could develop his own brand of magic using self-made tools and processes. Of course, without thousands of years of collected wizarding knowledge to learn from he would not come close to being able to replicate the breadth and depth of canonical HP magic--especially as he lacks the kind of academic genius of Dumbledore which would perhaps allow him to come up with a lot of magical theory on his own--but there's no reason why he couldn't develop specific abilities that were both useful and powerful.

Now go forth, my padawan, and write a story in which Harry casts a spell using a fish.

Harry Potter, fishomancer.

 

Not a fan of option 2/3.

Basically the biggest problem of introducing Harry Potter into a lot of other worlds is that the nature of magic from HP is that it breaks the world it's introduced to in a way. This is especially true if it's not held back by characterization (someone like Voldemort going to ASOIAF would lead to the world being subjugated fairly quickly, etc)

Think of the "magic" and the approach to magic in ASOIAF. Some dude with a fucking FLAMING SWORD manages to be held in awe by the entire kingdom. Some creepy old arsonist manages to command the full attention of the mad king.

Even the magic of a first year student is absolutely insane. A triwizard champion managing to hit a dragon in the eye with a conjunctivitis curse is enough to steal an egg from it.

If you're going to have Harry in ASOIAF, a fourth year manual on transfiguration would be overkill, let alone a magical library.

How would anyone grow magical skill if they weren't in a Hogwarts environment, assuming that it could be controlled without a wand etc? By trial and error, of course. Tom Riddle at an orphanage style.

 

I wonder if the best crossover in between these 2 universes might be the reverse of what you mention, namely that an asoiaf character dies and becomes harry potter. My sentiments on magical progression so closely mirror the above comment as to be redundant.

However one could take a an opposite approach utilizing the GOT sentiment of mellisandra that that world is hell and the real world is beyond the veil to mix metaphors and fandom, and bring a westerosi hero to the wizarding world.

Perhaps Ned with his knowledge, honor, and failure will do better in Britain as a reluctant foil to Dumbledore's similar traits. Or oberyn martell as a lusty vengeful berserker lost his revenge forever. Or jon snow, perhaps he REALLY knew nothing.

Also there isn't one of these type that I have ever seen or read so you could break some "New" ground. To this posit's contrary there might be the temptation to cannon rehash with a powerful Harry which is certainly has been done to death however fun it is.

 

You're right, balancing the powers and abilities of two different universes is always going to be a challenge, but I would very much like to read something along those lines. Harry just utterly dominating an entire world/universe. Power fantasy, sure, but possibly highly entertaining. Does such a crossover exist?

The closest thing I can think of is Darth Marrs' story.

 

It probably goes without saying but the relative strength of the protagonist should reflect what you're trying to achieve in the story. I don't think the MC always needs to grow stronger. Excluding bringing a bunch of books, pretty much all of the options you've listed are fine.

Is this a Harry from 4th year who's generally optimistic view will have to be reconciled with the brutal reality of ASOIAF? In that case option 1 would probably the best as his growing mastery of magic would parallel his developing character.

Alternatively, the story could focus more on the mystical side of ASOIAF, with a post-Hogwarts Harry trying to figure out how he got there, how to get back and whether gods really exist or not. Seeing as the challenge would be more difficult to overcome, option 3 or 4 would be more appropriate.

So I think it depends on what you want to do with respect to the plot and the characters. All three options (1, 3 and 4) work just fine, though I'm partial to 3, simply because it was done so well in HP and the Forests of Valbone.

I also think it's a bit of a mistake to say someone would stomp the ASOIAF universe with Hogwarts graduate knowledge. While it's possible, it completely discounts character motivation and character flaws. Out of the entire HP universe I can only see Voldemort actually trying something like that. I don't think such a thought would even occur to anyone else.

 

I don't think that changes the "stomp" statement. "An HP wizard would stomp the ASOIAF universe" is a statement of ability not specific desire. The point is that there would be no conflict - that's why it's a stomp. Whatever the wizard's goals, they will be achieved easily.

That said, I don't think it would take too long in the ASOIAF world, seeing the level of suffering, before a lone HP wizard would decide to take control (either for personal gain, or to do good, or a convenient convergence of the two). Both moral and immoral people would have a motivation to take the Iron Throne and place all of the great Houses under their direct control.

I mean, if I was in Westeros and had the powers of an HP wizard, I'd certainly seize power. There'd be so much to do: institute the rule of law and a stable political system, address matters of basic hygiene, begin implementing universal education, liberalise the Citadel and support new avenues of study... not to mention dealing with the Others.

And of course I would live like a King through all of it.

 

You know, Taure, your first post reminded me a bit of a certain LotR crossover that I read once... Although I have a few ideas for alternative forms of magic of uncertain quality, I think I’ll stick with the more recognizable canon wand magic.

I started writing yesterday with the fourth idea in mind, but I don’t think that it was leading me to the story I want to write. Too many potential struggles brushed away. Still, a few good ideas came from it, and I only wrote very little anyway (even if took an ungodly amount of time in relation to word count).

Perhaps a better start could be at the end of the fifth year, at the DoM. When the time turners are destroyed, Harry gets caught in a vortex and ends up in Westeros. Fifth year Harry would have a good knowledge base to be able to infer more advanced stuff, while also being incapable of apparition, which I agree is specially overpowered for the setting. And the Imperius is unspecified enough that I could easily tweak its capabilities, how long it lasts before having to be re-cast could depend on the wizard's skill level, for instance. Allied with a slower form of transportation this would put a wrench in the game-breaking plan of a world wide net of mind controlled minions.

With these limitations in mind I don’t think that the story would lack conflict, even if the chance of Harry losing a direct confrontation is small (although I could see him having problems against multiple enemies at the beginning), there would be the substantial boulder to roll uphill in order to bring peace to Westeros/Essos. Between his personality, morals, lack of knowledge and the endless horde of fuck-wits, Harry wouldn't lack for problems.

 

Magic is a plot device. Whatever Harry learns has to do with the plot and a way of developing it. So, the real question here is, what plot do you imagine, and what effect does Harry have on it?

Personally, I've never read an HP/ASOIAF crossover because the two universes are just so incompatible, so I have no idea what kind of plot these fics usually have.

Perhaps a combination of learning and plot would be to have Harry travel to the ruins of Valyria to find magic books or a wand, or perhaps catching the attention of Bloodraven - said to be a sorcerer who ruled the kingdom with spies and spells - and learning from him.

 

This is one of those questions where the answer depends on a large number of factors.

The Story

The first factor to consider is the planned genre/tone of the story. Quite simply I'd suggest that unless your story is going to be tagged as 'Adventure' or have strong themes of heroism etc then a magical progression is unimportant. In fics where action isn't the core the magic can and indeed should be shoved to the side to make more space for character progression.

In an aSoIaF story this would mean Harry attempting to take control of Westeros in order to lead it to enlightenment. In such a story the progression of Harry's abilities are largely irrelevant, to my mind. Instead the story should focus on Harry's political and personal interactions. So, for a story like this I would usually suggest simply dropping Harry in as an adult or similarly skilled wizard.

The Magic

The second factor is the nature of the magic that is already present in the crossover fandom, if magic exists at all. You need to answer the following question, "Is the magic different or is it the same magic seen from different perspectives?"

To take an example from the fairly common HP/Avengers crossover space, you have the choice of making Harry's magic like that of the Marvel characters that use it, sufficiently advanced science, or, at least, physically based phenomenon. The alternative is to keep Harry's magic true to the unadulterated canon of the HP books, in which case you have to consider the interplay between the two competing systems and decide how they will act when pitted against each-other.

Most Marvel fics choose to make Harry Potter magic a facet of Marvel magic and use a few hand-waves to give it a physical basis. For a world like aSoIaF I'd say that the opposite is more attractive; Harry Potter magic as a superset containing the magic of Westeros. However, this requires some thought on what exactly can be learned about each type of magic by learning the other; they are, after all, the same thing.

You could opt to keep the magic systems completely separate and say that the Children of the Forest use a form of magic completely unfamiliar to a HP wizard but that seems to me to make things rather complicated and given how similar they are on the surface it becomes hard to distinguish between the two types of magic in the narrative.

This relationship must then inform your choices on how your character will progress. If the two magics are related then the character may learn about one by studying the other and this gives you as the author a lot of leeway to merge the two systems into an amalgam that works well within your story.

If the two magics are unrelated then you will have a much more difficult time; your character will be forced to research magic basically from scratch and the entire story will have to be much more focussed on research, or will have to employ time-skips liberally if you want your character to progress at a speed satisfying for a reader.

The Tone

The third factor is related to the similarity of the two worlds in terms of tone and underlying message. Put simply, Harry Potter magic is the magic of wonder, amazement and miracles while magic within aSoIaF is much more darkly incomprehensible. You have to ask yourself which of those fits the story you wish to tell. If your story's setting can be described as 'Game of Thrones with Harry!" then you probably want to lean your progression towards the aSoIaF magic system and have Harry learn spells that are at least a little unsettling, and much less wondrous.

If, on the other hand, the story's setting would be more accurately described as 'Harry Potter goes to Westeros!' then you may be intending to keep more closely to the tone of the Harry Potter books than to the tone of the aSoIaF universe. If that is the case then you will want some method by which Harry can continue to grow in the use of Harry Potter style magic, you want to keep the sense of joy and wonder in magic as it best fits the planned story tone.

That Doesn't Really Help, Steelbadger

Maybe not, but a crossover is a hard thing to do well. You can't just take two things and throw them together and hope for the best. You have to think about how all the aspects of one story influence all of the aspects of the second story.

Personally my recommendation for a HP/aSoIaF crossover would be to use magic sparingly. aSoIaF is about people, not powers. If you wish to transplant Harry into a decent aSoIaF setting you have to be mindful of that. So I would actually suggest not devoting a significant portion of your story to Harry's magical development. Harry Potter magic is ridiculously OP within Westeros for big things but you know what? All of the aSoIaF stuff still matters.

Harry can take control, certainly. But how will be maintain control without losing himself? That is much more interesting to me, and more in keeping with the tone of aSoIaF, than a more simple ability focussed story.

 

The Wizard of Harrenhal. DisobedienceWriter tends to write an overpowered or soon-to-be-overpowering Harry and this story is no exception. He doesn't quite conquer Westeros by himself in a day. Conquering Westeros as it turns out is more of a side effect of his quest to return home, but this should be the most relevant fic for an HP/ASOIAF "power fantasy" fanfic. A somewhat amusing read I guess, with the reactions some of the ASOIAF cast have with regards to Harry.

Regarding the OP, I would largely agree with Taure's approach. I wouldn't go so far to say that Westeros could be conquered in a day, but even an average Hogwarts graduate can do some serious work in Westeros. I think it's probably better to go with a "Tom Riddle" ish route, where Harry has bouts of controlled "accidental" magic that he can use for subtle effects, while also having to re-invent magic for himself.

Otherwise you risk sidelining the rather interesting ASOIAF cast into irrelevance if even the Mountain That Rides can be felled with one or two quick Stunners off the bat. Or what happens to the White Walkers if Harry apparates into the middle of their forces, casts Fiendfyre, and apparates out? Wham bam, shazam, no more worrying about the Long Night? The power differential as it would stand in approaches 2 or 3 are simply too great.

 

This is precisely what I mean when I say "held back by characterization".

The nature of characterization holding someone back (I hesitate to call this a problem, per se) and not the direct mechanics of the universe is that the characterization needs to survive the emotional/physical turmoil of the universe in question.

ASOIAF is particularly bad in that regard - it would take a particularly strong set of circumstances for characters of more lighthearted universes (HP is definitely more lighthearted, no matter how you look at it) to not be victimized by their circumstances in Westeros.

I guess the angle you can take is "well, but it's Harry Potter", but honestly what does that even accomplish - if Harry goes through Westeros and doesn't use his magic to make sweeping stomp changes (which we know for certain is possible when we compare the worlds by magic canon), then that means that the world hasn't affected Harry.

In a twisted way, that's kinda "stompy" and "super" in itself - literally you'd need the boneheaded stubbornness of a protag in a shonen anime - and that in itself forces out some kind of cheesy plot lines on its own.

Which ultimately lead to more roflstomp.

There's just really no way to square a well-created character who's driven by anything (logic, morality, love, emotion, power, wealth, etc) - who won't take advantage of their, well, MAGIC.

Which is what makes crossovers so damn hard - and why HP magic is such a double-edged plot device in crossovers in general. It always has to be diluted thoroughly (Prince Who was Promised) - or it just hijacks the narrative. So be really really careful with how you handle it.

That being said, a good crossover is fucking awesome.