During an IRC convo with kmfrank yesterday, this idea popped up and it's been on my mind since.

We know that, by canon, Harry Dresden calls himself a "magical thug," more suited to the entropic characteristics of magic, such as battle use, powerful elemental spells, and using "globs of magic" rather than delicate touch. Conversely, Elaine and Molly are said to have better touch in magic, being able to successfully create veils with speed, access the tempermental mind magics, but lack raw firepower.

Now as dicussion of DF went on, the idea of personal birth experiences crafting the magicians abilities became more evident. Harry Dresden (in his youth) was forced to battle with Justin DuMorne and He-Who-Walks-Behind, both individuals who were more adept at magic. Following this, his life included more spell-slinging avenues of magic, from his work in the Series and perhaps at Ragged Angel Investigations. On the other side of the metaphorical spectrum, Elaine lived a life of relative of escape and stealth, where she needed to control her magical output instead of overloading spells. She thus developed magical touch in her spells, accessing the careful berth of veils, bindings, and finer aspects of magic. Similarly, Molly was a closet-practioner who tried to hide her ability of magic, using it only sparingly on her friends in her own quasi-good intention. Since her position as Dresden's apprentice, she has only been in charge of hiding from battle, honing any existing skills even further.

And so we reach the adage: Can you teach an old dog new tricks? We know that in SF, Dresden was able to hone down his current spells, using wind to replicate a hair dryer type effect rather than the familiar gusts. He even recalls that since he has began touching upon the basics, rituals that would usually take him an hour now only take 15 minutes.

Is the axiom infinitely true? Or (with age and experience) can wizards and witches branch out (even to an extent) of their former alignment of success to have a more wide berth of ability? Beings such as Cowl and Fae possess the delicate touch to rip seemless holes through dimensions, and at the same time wield the power to wield unimaginable force. Wizards such as McCoy are certainly well versed in their areas of expertise, while other Senior Council members can come through seemless veils and still be formidable in battle.

Discuss: Affiliations with different magics and the possibility/plausibility of change with age and going back to the basics.

 

Heh, bit surprised at seeing this up here, Nightfox! Was an interesting conversation, though. I'd definitely like to see what others think!

 

I'd say that they definitely can. While Harry will probably never be Elaine or Molly's equal at something like a veil after 200 years he's gonna get to be decent at it just because of the vast amount of experience at it. What I'm trying to say is that even if you don't have an aptitude for something you can still get good at something through enough practice and when you live for several centuries you get a lot of practice.

I remember reading over on Butcher's forums that he said that the Merlin and Ebenezar were both a lot like Harry when they were his age. In other words they were also labeled the 'magical thug' by their seniors, but as is fairly obvious now they kick 10 different types of ass at almost everything, maybe not the best at everything but they do it all pretty well.

 

Another thing I brought up in IRC with Nightfox was another little theory about why Elaine and Molly have better control.

Dresden, with his gobs of energy to toss around, never really needed any control to cause your basic explosion or gust of wind. He'd just get it basically correct and toss in power. Elaine or Molly, on the other hand, had to get the basics of the spell down much more accurately and use their limited power more efficiently.

So basically, Dresden was just kinda lazy in that the spell worked, so he never learned to cast it more efficiently until he started teaching Molly and realized how sloppy he was. So he's slowly getting better, having advanced quite far since he took on his apprentice, in my opinion.

 

Say it with me now. I am not Harry Dresden. I am not Harry Dresden. I am not Harry Dresden.

 

My first problem with this theory is that in either White Knight or Summer Knight. Dresden says that Elaine had power if Im not mistaken. Just not as much as Dresden. Also in White Knight it looked to me like Elaine was perfectly capable of big explosion type magic when she destroyed half a motel with one spell. I say that Elaine is perfectly capable of doing as much destruction and big obvious magic as your average or above average wizard just Dresden isnt your average or even above average wizard.


Dresden also said that Molly has power, plenty of power, but her talents simply lie in different areas of magic than Harry's. Just like with Elaine its not a lack of magical power. Its more that both are average to above average in the area of raw magical power. Dresden is just a 8 or 9 out of 10 with an average of 4. He makes everyone look bad on the amount of raw power.

 

Magic in the DF is similar to a muscle, the more you practice and train with it the stronger, faster, and better you become at using it.

 

I believe that at one point Dresden said that Elaine was just about as strong as him, just with different specialties. This would imply its about raw power, just Harry has larned how to channel all of his power into big blows all at once, whilst Elane has learned to apply it dellicately. Same amount of power, basically, just different application.

 

Harry could probably beat the shit out of nearly everyone if he could use his powers as efficiently as Elaine or Molly...

I read this Thread and the whole time I thought 'Isn't it the same with chakra?'

Naruto has the power, Sakura the control, if he could use his chakra like Tsunade/Sakura he could probably kick ass far better.

It basically control versus power.

 

I wouldnt go so far as to say the Elaine is Harry's equal but she is obviously not lacking. Elaine might just be a perfectionist. She thinks about the fine details in the process; while Harry thinks about the end result.

 

From what I understand of Summer Knight, Elaine is very, very good at using what few spells she knows (mostly of the stealth variety and THAT ONE BINDING). However, as (I think I remember) she admits, she never had the time (and I would argue temperament) to learn more spells. She just becomes better and better at the ones she uses.

Dresden, on the other hand, is constantly running out of time and suffering magical and physical exhaustion; he doesn't have the time for finesse, and probably never has, so he focuses on the quick-and-dirty hella big effects, a la Ventas Servitas and Fuego.

In Book 5, I believe, Dresden mentions that he is not particularly good with the earth spells; I can't tell whether this is from lack of practice or lack of affinity; he also does not use water directly (Books 1-5). In Book 3 he uses the wind to make the water run under the nightmare. These would serve to suggest affinities, but I don't believe there is any hard proof. If this were the case, Dresden's would certainly be with fire and air, while Elaine's would seem to be with spirit and the senses.

I am not qualified to discuss Molly, as the Books 6 and up were unavailable at 3 different bookstores and 2 libraries. Someone hates me.

 

He tends more towards fire and force instead of air in the latter half of the series.

I think that as has been noted so far he has been able to spare the power to literally force a spell to work through brute force where as someone like Elaine is on close to his level even as she lacks the power but makes up for it with finesse. Despite that if you see what she says in White Night about his bracelet, that she couldn't make anything close to it, as well as what Bob has said about Little Chicago, Harry is coming along a lot in the finesse and subtly departments which makes all of that power that he does have even more dangerous.

 

Exactly what I was trying to say, fuubar, if a bit more eloquently than I managed. The power differential between him and Elaine might not be all that enormous, but its enough for him to force things through, where she needs more control. I think the mention of thought-processes behind the magic also was a valid idea, and interesting.

 

On my mention of the thought process behind it. I thought about that more and it made more sense. Dresden learned to use his magic in battle where he was deprived of time to think it out. He needed the end result. Its just like in HP they are taught the theory and the practical side.

Harry learned how to make his end result be there when he needed. It didnt matter if he wasted tremendous amounts of power from his spells or it bleed off because he didnt control it well.

Elaine has spent years learning and mastering what she knows.

Its the age old debate of the specialist (Elaine) and the person (Harry) who can do many things but doesnt master any of them.

Elaine is far better at what she knows than Dresden but Dresden can do far more through his greater knowledge about magic and the different types of spells.

She is a master at using as little energy as possible, conserving it to use in later spells; while Harry just blasts away with everything he has because odds are in your average encounter he has the most power especially when he is fresh. Notice something else, when Harry Dresden hits something with one of his drastically over powered spells it rarely gets back up.

 

Still in a lot of ways Dresden is better off long term. Sure for right now Elaine can get more bang for her buck with what she does, but 10 years or so down the road when Dresden has even more fine control and experience with what he does, he is going to have a similar level of control over all of the things that he currently does. Plus he would still have even more power to throw around. Although I think that we are underestimating Elaine just a bit. On the boat in White Night she was more than holding her own as well, ie that tornado spell was just as nasty as Dresden's ever were, as well as when she broke through the spell Aurora used in Summer Knight.

The whole thing with Dresden essentially learning in a literal 'trial by fire' might have some merits. However, IMO, it doesn't quite cover everything as he has had plenty of time to work on stuff just for the heck of it and not under massive pressure. Although if at the start he got himself into bad habits and that carried over through all of his work until now it would make sense-- infact that would make a lot of sense ...

God I love these books, so many little facts and details that get thrown in there that make it so much fun.

 

Im not doubting Elaine. I agree with a few years Dresden will be far beyond Elaine but Elaine is going to continue to learn as well.

Elaine more than holds her own in White Knight on the boat and later at the motel when she wakes up.

Its hard to compare wizards because we have really only seen a little of what they can do. We know McCoy can pull a satelite out of orbit, that the Luccio and Morgan are good with battle magic, Ramierez is talented, that the Merlin is one powerful sob, and that Harry Dresden has more raw power than some wizards a century or 2 old than him, example: Luccio. We have yet to see what they can really do.

 

If only muscles actually worked this way, soccer players would be faster than sprinters and this analogy wouldn't be as retarded as it has been every other time it has been written.

Can people stop saying this, please? Sure, it sounds correct, but only the last part "the better you become at using it" is more than sort of correct, and it is still only partially correct.

 

I think you can compare it to chakra,
some people have more than others and training can only do so much, but control can even the field out or at least try to even it.

 

This dosen't make sense. Both Elaine and Dresden learned magic from the same teacher, at the same time, in the same way - as well as from each other. What they did with this foundation is different, but their different styles don't come down to how they learned magic.

 

Alratan we are speaking more of the real world situations, where they were required to come up with things on the fly to survive, possibly having an impact on their skill set.