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Muggleborns in northern Europe

Discussion in 'Fanfic Discussion' started by Daidalos, May 8, 2016.

  1. Daidalos

    Daidalos Fourth Year

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    (I considered putting this question in the HP questions-thread, but I don't think canon supplies an answer, so I'm creating a new thread instead. Mods should feel free delete/move the thread if I am mistaken.)

    If we are to believe Draco, Durmstrang doesn't admit muggleborns, at least during the stewardship of Igor Karkaroff (GoF, chapter 11). This raises the question, what options do muggleborns born in northern Europe have as far as their magical education is concerned?

    Off the top of my head, I can think of the following:

    1. Attend Hogwarts or Beauxbatons instead.
    2. Attend some lesser institution that caters to muggleborns in northern Europe.
    3. Hire a private tutor or enter into an apprenticeship with a willing master.
    4. ...fend for yourself?

    There are obvious problems with all these alternatives.

    To the first point, while we know next to nothing about the individual members of Beauxbatons' student body, Hogwarts doesn't seem flooded with wizards and witches of obvious Scandinavian/Germanic descent. Keeping in mind how many countries send their children to Durmstrang, there really ought to be at least a couple muggleborn each year who aren't admitted to Durmstrang. Consider, we know there are at least two muggleborns in Harry's year (Hermione and Justin Finch-Fletchley) and at least two more among the younger students (Colin and Dennis Creevey), and that's just from Britain. Furthermore, even if muggleborns from outside Britain are eligible to attend Hogwarts, there are still nagging questions. Do they receive admittance letters by owl? Do they have access to the fund for students lacking means (as was the case with Tom Riddle)?

    As for the second alternative, this would admittedly solve the problem, except I don't think we've heard anything about any such schools existing. The question then becomes, given the alternatives, is it plausible that such schools do indeed exist?

    Point the third: I don't imagine it's very easy for a muggleborn with no connections in the Wizarding world to persuade someone to take them on as apprentices. Even if some manage to find masters, there might be some who don't; what happens to them? I suppose there could exist a system where a muggleborn enters into the apprenticeship with the understanding that they work for their master for a decided-upon number of years after coming of age. This is of course a recipe for exploitation, which doesn't necessarily rule out the possibility.

    Fourth and finally, the proposed alternative also suffers problems and implausibilities. Untrained wizards still have bursts of accidental magic, which might attract undue Muggle attention. I don't see a Wizarding government---especially one so intolerant as to accept Durmstrang's discriminatory practices---accepting such a risk to the Statute of Secrecy. So, what do to? Have ready teams of obliviators keep track of the muggleborn during their entire lives? More draconian measures, such as actually killing off all muggleborns to prevent such nuisances? While the latter suggestion might solve the problem, I would say it's implausible because in my naivety I believe such a monstrous policy would attract sufficient outrage to at least merit mention in the canon. Another possibility (I don't know how likely) is that there exists an unofficial network/organization of other muggleborns who have been similarly denied tuition who try to help others of their kind as much as they can.

    So, do any of you have any ideas or comments?

    ETA: I would also ask, more generally, what can reasonably be expected from wizards and witches who aren't taught magic at the big schools? Most likely, the great majority of them would probably be inferior to their formally-schooled peers. However, I'm not sure this is necessarily the case. From our world, we do have examples of extraordinary individuals making great strides without an education at prestige institutions. Here I'm thinking of Srinivasa Ramanujan, who managed to make significant mathematical discoveries on his own, with less-than stellar resources at his disposal. Or the Polgar sisters, who grew to become excellent chess players (one international master, one grandmaster and Women's World Chess Champion, and one who rose to the top ten list of players, including men), their success in my opinion in large part due to the pedagogical skill of their father (who was NOT himself a skilled chess player). This was in contrast to the Soviet players who received training in official chess schools from former world champions. These examples suggest to me the possibility that a sufficiently brilliant wizard/witch doesn't need formal schooling to become great at magic. What do you guys think?
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2016
  2. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    I think the likely option is the second one.

    Relevant bits from Pottermore:

    It seems clear that the 11 schools of magic are like a global magical Ivy League. They're not the only schools of magic, but their quality of education is much higher than the others. So there probably are alternatives within Europe for those Muggleborns, it's just that they're getting a second class education.

    Incidentally, this surely gives Britain (and to a lesser extent Japan) a significant advantage and might go some way to explaining why it seems to punch above its weight (producing Dumbledore and Voldemort within a relatively short time). They're the only countries that have a high quality and large scale magical school all to themselves. Uagadou takes students from all over Africa, Beuxbatons takes students from half of Europe. Surely this means that lots of magical people in those areas fail to gain entry to a top flight school and have to go to second rate schools instead.
     
  3. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    Yeah, I rarely try to use Rowling's wizarding world beyond Britain. It's a fairly thankless task.

    That said, I wouldn't be surprised if it's 4. I mean, what is realistically going to happen? Harry turns his teacher's hair blue. "Magic" has to be the last thing on earth that teacher thinks. Also, do we know that this is the case -- "untrained wizards still have bursts of accidental magic"? What would also fit is that young children have bursts of accidental magic, and it fades as they grow and their emotions become more controlled.

    So perhaps they are just ignored, and never given a chance to enter their wizarding world. Which would make Britain quite liberal, which is something I'd like.
     
  4. Daidalos

    Daidalos Fourth Year

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    Thank you for your responses. I also quite like the idea that Magical Britain has a comparative advantage, thanks both to its liberalism and the low student-to-magical-school ratio.

    I wonder, since Dumbledore is disparaged as a "champion of commoners, of Mudbloods and Muggles" by Voldemort, might it be that case that Britain is a little bit more enlightened/liberal because of Dumbledore's efforts? Considering who he is, I imagine he would be able to exert quite the influence.
     
  5. Andrela

    Andrela Plot Bunny DLP Supporter

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    I like to think that muggleborns are not given a chance at all and that the North-Eastern Europe is a Pureblood Paradise (whatever that may mean).
     
  6. arkkitehti

    arkkitehti High Inquisitor

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    I've been thinking of the issue in terms of languages. Hogwarts is obviously the English speaking school and Beauxbatons is the French school. Durmstrang is already a lot harder to categorize, as it seems that there's a major overlap between Slavic and Germanic languages. What language do the professors use in Durmstrang?

    That alone might lead to a pure-blood supremacy in Durmstrang. It's entirely reasonable to think that the (relatively small) pure-blood community within all of Durmstrang's area of influence speaks common language, as they don't really need or want to interact with the local muggles. So a muggleborn of a, say, Polish speaking family is fucked simply because he can't understand what the professors are teaching.

    Not to say anything about even smaller languages like Finnish or Estonian. Small populations like that probably produce less than one muggleborn per year, not nearly enough to have a proper school.

    The local ministries might have some kind of trade school system for the unfortunate locals who don't speak "Durmstrang", but a muggleborn-only school is likely to be substandard by definition.
     
  7. The Wasp

    The Wasp First Year

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    Apparently Beauxbatons takes kids from Portugal, Spain, the Netherlands, Luxembourg and Spain. I assume they have a way to incorporate those kids. Durmstrang must have a similar program.

    The thing about Durmstrang that puzzles me is just how many kids from different countries go there. We know it's somewhere in the north where it's cold and there's little sunlight in the winter. My guess would be either Norway, Sweden, Finland, or Russia. I'm thinking Russia is most likely (but obviously there's no way of knowing) due to its Slavic tendencies.

    So I believe they take kids from Russia, Ukraine, the Baltics, the former Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Romania, Poland, etc. Of course we know little to nothing about the way blood purity operates in Eastern Europe, so they might just limit their choices prominent pure blood families in the region while everyone else rots. Furthermore this could be due to Karkaroff's influence.

    That leaves much of central and southern Europe without a former school- Scandinavia, Germany, Italy, Greece, Denmark, Austria, etc. I wonder where those kids go to school. Germany has the largest population in all of Europe, you would think they have their own school.
     
  8. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    Maybe Durmstrang is in Germany, and a few centuries ago they opened it to the rest of the area. There's some seriously cold places in Germany, especially if you start hiding the school on a mountain or something, like Nebelhorn. Not that one, because people live there, but you know.

    Or maybe germans produce an abnormally low percentage of magicals for their population.
     
  9. ashland

    ashland Second Year

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    I can't find the interview, but JKR said Durmstrang is in Scandinavia, more specifically Northern Sweden or Norway.
     
  10. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    "It was cold in Leipzig this winter." :p

    (You know an opening sentence is good if it sticks with you after years.)

    But yeah, Germany doesn't fit at all with the (vaguely tundra-esque) landscape we see described in GoF, at least not contemporary Germany. I put Durmstrang into Estonia for a story, the nothernmost place where Germans once settled, but otherwise, the natural fit is anything north of the polar circle.

    And The Wasp, the issue as pointed out by the OP was Draco's statement that "Durmstrang doesn't accept all this riff-raff", meaning Muggleborns, which, if taken at face-value, brings up the question where Muggleborns go or if they go anywhere at all.


    Regarding the languages-issue -- I would think the students have to learn language of the school. In fact, I wouldn't find it strange if speaking the language was an admission requirement, and it was otherwise up to the parents to make sure the children speak it.

    The equivalent to me is speaking English today in order to study in Cambridge, or German in the 19th century to study in Göttingen, or French in the 18th century to study in Paris -- children in educated homes learned the academic language of their time, in order to converse with and read the leading scientists and philosophers, and study under them later.

    Hogwarts, Durmstrang and Beuxbatons are then exactly like those prestigious institutions, and their academic achievements would define the lingua franca of scholars and magical research.
     
  11. DerHesse

    DerHesse Unspeakable

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    I like to believe Pottermore, that Durmstrang is somewhere in Scandinavia.

    [​IMG]

    What has to be taken into consideration regarding Durmstrang and northern Europe in general was the war started by Grindelwald, his loss and the repercussions.
     
  12. Download

    Download Auror ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Being part of the Ivy League doesn't mean you're a good school, it just means you're part of the old boys network. It's perfectly possible for other schools to be highly capable but are looked down upon by the other because they're not old enough for their liking.
     
  13. Daidalos

    Daidalos Fourth Year

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    This is a very good point. It's a little counterintuitive, but institutions such as Harvard aren't there to provide excellent education; from the organization's perspective, its purpose is to conduct research, from the students' perspective, its purpose is to signal intelligence/competence. Harvard professors aren't hired for their pedagogical skills, after all. The question is of course how much of this is true of the elite Wizarding educational institutions.
     
  14. The Wasp

    The Wasp First Year

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    Regarding muggle borns, I'm inclined to believe their current non acceptance of muggle borns has more to do with Karkaroff. Individuals like Krum did not seem to buy into pure blood mania, nor did Grindelwald seem to concern much about it. So my guess is that some of that prejudice exists, but it was strengthened by the presence of a former Death Eater.

    Where they would go is anyone's guess. I think they would be mostly ignored, but some would be lucky enough to get some form of education.

    If Durmstrang is indeed in Scandinavia, it's probably likely that the kids from Germany would go there along with the rest of Eastern Europe and Russia. Which still leaves out Italy and Greece but there's nothing to go off of there.

    In regards to languages, if they are in Norway or Sweden, it would be reasonable to surmise that if your guess is correct, they would be speaking either Norwegian or Swedish. Which is interesting considering Karkaroff is probably Russian and they also take people as far away as Bulgaria. The whole ethnic dynamic there is really intriguing.
     
  15. arkkitehti

    arkkitehti High Inquisitor

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    Personally I place Durmstrang somewhere in the Carpathian mountains. It's not in the far north like Hermione speculated based on their uniforms, but it actually gets cold as fuck there compared to the relatively mild climate of the inhabited shores of Scandinavia (thanks to the Gulf Stream).

    In my opinion Scandinavia just doesn't make much sense for a multitude of reasons, e.g. languages and population density.
     
  16. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    Yeah, but the location [using only the books, not Rowling's comment] was mostly based on Viktor's assertion that "ve have grounds larger even than these — though in vinter, ve have very little daylight, so ve are not enjoying them."

    In mid-latitudes, the winters aren't as short as to make that a remarkable feature, especially not as compared to Hogwarts/Scotland, which is the context.


    I also wouldn't get caught up in distances. The entire world is just a Portkey away, as we see during the worldcup in GoF. Whether the school is in Siberia, Lapland or more southern places is irrelevant, as far as logistics are concerned.

    If the eastern and central European magical population is small enough to be served by one school only, students can come from Bulgaria as well as from Norway. The only limiting factor is the size of Durmstrang.
     
  17. The Wasp

    The Wasp First Year

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    I think given the fact that Durmstrang's castle is not as big as Hogwarts it would be reasonable to say that they don't have as many students. So that would also lend to the notion that they only let in pure bloods or are very picky about who they accept in general.

    I think the magical population in those parts would depend on some factors, but I would assume the muggle/wizard ratio would be the same as it is in Britain. If Durmstrang is the only school in Northern/Eastern Europe, that would leave a lot of kids out in the cold (no pun intended).
     
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