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Peace Talks - Chapter 1 Released

Discussion in 'Fanfic Discussion' started by LittleChicago, May 29, 2016.

  1. LittleChicago

    LittleChicago Headmaster DLP Supporter

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    Harry and Thomas are way too family-minded for it to be a consideration. Karrin and Michael are both Catholic, as is Molly.

    The suggestion would be more likely to come from someone with a different POV, perhaps a pragmatist, maybe someone with a more scientific bent. Butters, perhaps, or Will, though with his own kid now... who knows? Family - and *protecting* family - is an overriding theme of the series. It may not come up at all, though I'd be surprised, since Jim would be leaving himself open to the question "Why didn't anyone consider it?" for months to come.
     
  2. Puzzled

    Puzzled High Inquisitor

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    Ignoring the already mentioned Dresden family history with children it's quite possible in the Dresdenverse abortions are straight up murder as the Catholic church teaches. The Christian god is real as are souls, Thomas might not be willing to kill his child even with the risks. Our materialist perspective isn't necessarily valid.
     
  3. Innomine

    Innomine Alchemist ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    If she ended up getting an abortion, it would hardly be worth the time spent discussing it in the book I'd say.

    Regarding the chapter, it honestly feels like a very early draft. I hope jim takes the time to get the book right, as it seems like a very important one in the series.
     
  4. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    My point was that he is willing to go to any lengths to protect his family. Thomas is much along the same lines, though his father makes it a bit more complicated than Harry's orphan complex. I believe the most relevant phrase is "If the world burns because of that then so be it. Me and the kid will roast some marshmallows."

    It's not the context that's important here, because it's Harry's personality that drove that entire story.
     
  5. D-Mister

    D-Mister Squib

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    Just read chapter preview. Believe that it's heavily implied that this thread contains spoilers so don't complain of such.

    The chapter felt rushed and incomplete. The fact that Justine is now pregnant and the baby is harmful to her is a topic I won't get into at the moment.

    The real issue is how Thomas, Carlos, and Harry are handled. Thomas apparently just jumps right back into his familiar relationship with Harry, no muss or fuss. Understand it may be hard for Butcher to show on screen in 1st POV format but the past 3 books have seemed out of place for Thomas. He just makes brief appearances and goes along as a sidekick. I know the series is Harry's story but there is a woeful lack of other character's screentime. This also includes Molly and Carlos for the past few books. That brings me to Carlos in the chapter.

    Carlos walks right up to Harry and starts with Council business. Like Harry wasn't responsible for the genocide of an entire supernatural nation, presumed dead, became the Winter Knight, had his warlock apprentice become a Fairy Princess, or was out of contact with him for years. He's either monumentally stupid or I'm not giving him enough credit. If somebody I knew had all that happen to them, I would pause and consider what exactly was going on. Now maybe he is using a direct approach to have Harry beside him to keep an eye on (even by the Senior Council's orders). However, this feels more like Butcher just breezing over character interactions of Harry and others outside his circle. There could be so much done, should be so much done, over the past several books. The training wheels are off and things are going pear shaped yet Butcher insists he can just have Harry go on episodic adventures the past few books. So much backstory and explanation has yet to be done.


    P.S. - Forgot to mention security team. Harry should be on it but the initial approach should have been done by Winter Court. That just seems more logical and intriguing choice to me, able to lead into more character interactions and potential future complications.
     
  6. Ragon

    Ragon Dark Lord

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    On the relationships and interactions between Dresden, Thomas, and Carlos; don't forget that each book covers a period of few days and months pass by between books. Dresden has been back from the dead for 2 books now, so a couple of years in the books. Yes, it would be interesting to see how the council reacted to his return, but we don't necessarily have to see it. I feel sure that his standing with the council will be an issue in the book, but to me it's far more interesting to see how it is now that he has been back for a while versus when he first returned.

    Officially, I can't imagine the Council would be upset by his return. He is very popular with the younger wardens and just ended a war that had waged for more than a decade. Yes he started the war, but he also ended it with a vengeance. The council would be idiots to not accept his return officially. Are all of them going to be happy about? No, but when have they ever all been happy with him. Are they all going to trust him? No, but same thing.

    As for if he has to choose, Mab may not give a damn about what the council thinks of her or Dresden's position in her court, but she has an incentive to not force him to choose between the two unless absolutely necessary. He made it clear in Ghost Story that he will serve in his own way and that is precisely what Mab wants. She doesn't want an average knight; she wants Harry Dresden, the wizard who bows to no one, openly insults gods and demons, and has earned the respect of gods and Arch angels. To make him betray the council or force him to choose risks him carrying out the threat he made in Ghost Story.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2016
  7. Zeelthor

    Zeelthor Scissor Me Timbers

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    And Justine isn't part of that family? 0.o

    I don't give a crap about how Catholic someone is (and Dresden sure as heck ain't, nor is Thomas or Justine) if the mother's life is almost certainly forfeit in the process, then it's something that should be discussed. :p

    And that's not even taking into account Justine's mental health problems. There is just no way having this kid is going to be a good thing for anyone, including said kid.

    The only way I can see around it is if Justine says she's okay with the considerable risk... And I could honestly see her doing just that.
     
  8. Seratin

    Seratin Proudmander –§ Prestigious §– DLP Supporter

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    Guys. Seriously.

    Fuck this turning into an abortion debate.

    Just fuck it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2016
  9. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    That's not the point at all. It may be better from an outside point of view, but Harry Dresden wouldn't see it that way. We're not talking about whether Justine should or should not have an abortion. We're talking about whether either Harry or Thomas would have brought it up in that conversation. The answer, if you've read any of the books, is an obvious no.
     
  10. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Aekiel I think your argument has a problem with a missing a premise.

    Your argument is roughly this:

    Premise 1. Harry Dresden is strongly family oriented and protective of children.

    Conclusion 1. Therefore Harry would not contemplate abortion.

    Conclusion 2. Harry does not contemplate abortion solely by virtue of his personality, not by virtue of religion or ideology.

    Except you're missing the premise:

    2. Harry Dresden considers a foetus a child.

    You need that premise to reach the conclusion, because without it, his protectiveness of children is not engaged. And yet that premise is exactly what you're trying to avoid, because it contradicts conclusion 2. It means that yes, Harry Dresden is objecting out of religious/ideological grounds, because that is a key part of the "pro-life" ideological position.

    And yet Harry is not himself religious and in the past has been presented as having largely secular values. It doesn't really make much sense. But then Dresden's character has been progressively fucked for the last 5 or 6 books, so I guess it's kinda consistent.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2016
  11. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    This may seem unusual, given that we often divide the entire United States into two ideologies, but you can have both a pro-life stance and be largely secular. That's not even considering the fact that it is objectively true that God, Jesus and souls exist in the Dresdenverse. With that context, combined with Harry's pathological need to protect his family, do you see any way he would consider the idea of abortion?

    Look, you know me. I'm as pro-choice as they come, but what about Harry Dresden's past actions and character could lead you to believe he'd see that as a viable choice? Even discounting the religious aspect in its entirety, Harry would still not consider it simply by virtue of his feelings towards family. Maybe if he wasn't related to Thomas it could have been contemplated, but everything about Harry's character that I've read in the books tells me that he wouldn't even think about it in regards to a potential niece/nephew.
     
  12. Zeelthor

    Zeelthor Scissor Me Timbers

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    Again... What about Justine probably dying? What about the consequences that would have to Thomas? They are also his family and he has known them for over a decade, whereas he has known of Justine's pregnancy for minutes.

    Even if God is real we have no idea which part of which religions are real, if any. As such, we do not know if abortion is considered murder. Nor do we know if the soul is fully formed during the process of sex or if it takes a while.

    Aaaand while we're on that subject. It's a cute idea that love is a force of creation and that sex creates both the child and its soul... so what about sex that has nothing to do with love? Or rape? I may be going slightly off topic, but I feel it is related to the whole idea of the unborn child having a soul.

    And then there's Dresden's stance. The way I understand the character, he'd leave the choice to Justine.
     
  13. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    I acknowledge the points you are making and understand where you're coming from, I just don't think it'd be something Dresden would consider in the, as you said, minutes since he heard about it. I think he would support Justine's decision, if she decided to go that route, but I don't think Harry himself would ever seriously consider the idea of abortion in this case. Especially now that he's a father himself.

    If I'm remembering it correctly, conception is described as the intermingling of two spirits, which then become the soul of the child. That would imply, to me, that the soul at least begins to form at conception. Given that the soul regenerates you could argue that it takes the full term of the pregnancy to become a whole one, but then the argument becomes 'at what point does this constitute a human soul'? In the Dresdenverse, I suspect it's closer to conception than birth.
     
  14. Agayek

    Agayek Dimensional Trunk DLP Supporter

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    This seems relevant here.
     
  15. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    It's not an abortion debate. It's a debate about what is and isn't within Harry Dresden's character.
     
  16. Erandil

    Erandil Minister of Magic

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    I know I am in the minority here but I have to say that another (Dresden) family drama doesn`t exactly fill me with anticipation and that talk/behaviour with his brother sounded a bit weird/strange to me - which was not helped by Ramos suddenly appearing and making a lot of statements that, to me at least, would need a lot more explanation than what we see so far.

    I was never a fan of the whole Harry Dresden being a dad theme/plot and its growing role in the series (with him being a full-time parent and now the addition of Bonnie) is more than a bit disappointing to me. This is really not the Harry Dresden I want to read about...

    I am still curious about the new book since it seems to cover one of the, for me at least, more interesting aspects and gives us a chance to meet characters and factions I missed but I dearly hope it will not be another letdown like his last novel.
     
  17. LittleChicago

    LittleChicago Headmaster DLP Supporter

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    So, you didn't like Skin Game? Weird. For me, it felt like a return to form, after the odd and introspective Ghost Story and the complete blitz that was Cold Days.

    I'll second the feeling that we've been down this road before, though... twice now, really. On the other hand, the paths to Maggie and Bonnie were very different. Who knows how this branch of the family tree will be handled?
     
  18. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    You guys are forgetting that it takes time for the baby to grow. It's going to be next book at the earliest before we get Thomas's kid making a showing. Justine may be kidnapped or something, but we haven't seen that since Charity faced Kravos.
     
  19. Ryuugi Shi

    Ryuugi Shi Hierarch

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    Honestly, I think the pacing is becoming an issue for me. Not the pacing in the book themselves, really, but of the series. Early on, the series could skip a year or two and it was fine, because...well, it sort of seemed like nothing all that important was happening, I guess. But these recent books, starting with Turn Coat, really, so much seems to be getting flown by like it's a minor detail. We brushed over the whole Thomas thing, despite its supposed impact. The issues with the Council and Grey Council mattered only somewhat in Changes. The deaths of the Red Count and the rise of the Fomor have basically been side issues; for the new big bads on the block, we haven't even seen the Fomor yet, in the main story. Then there's Harry spending a year and a half on Demonreach? And this time skip?

    I feel like we're missing something. Honestly, at this point, I'd rather have some side stories to fill in the gaps then the next book, because the whole 'Peace Talk' issue lacks wait when we never really saw anyone fighting.
     
  20. Erandil

    Erandil Minister of Magic

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    I actually meant his non DF novel, The Aeronauts Windlass. Skin Game was certainly a step up from his last two books though I also had some issues with it and its place in the timeline.

    Or at this point my problems are perhaps with the series itself - too much of a focus on christianity, how certain side-characters were developed/focused on (Butters...) while others were ignored, too many pop-culture references and as I mentioned above the whole Harry being a father thing.

    Edit: And Ryuugi brings up the argument I missed - though I disagree on the side story thing since to me it already feels like far too much important developments are happening there/outside the main series.

    ---------- Post automerged at 05:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:38 PM ----------


    The kid doesn't need to physically present to have an impact on the story as seen in the intro and the small discussion we already had here. In fact with Butcher mentioning Justinne (and more importantly her problems) in the first chapter/few lines the issue needs to be explored in the book because why else mention it/bring it to the attention of the reader?
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2016
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