That bit had less to do with knowledge of Denarians and the way they operate and more to do with the basic, fundamental nature of the men involved.

Sanya and especially Michael are the quintessential "good guys", the Knights in Shining Armor (literally in some cases). By nature, they are predisposed to believing the best of everyone, and as a consequence are easy to fool with a sob story and/or an attempt at redemption. It doesn't really matter how true it is, because they want it to be true. I'm not saying they're stupid or anything, just that they are willing and eager to believe in the innate goodness of humankind.

Dresden, on the other hand, is far more cynical. He views the world through the lens of "It's not a matter of if but when the world will screw me". As a consequence, he's rather skeptical of such sob stories and sympathy-grasping, which makes the manipulations more apparent, if not necessarily obvious, to him.

Also, if you're going to use the whole "Dresden had a Fallen Angel in his head, so he knows how they work" schtick, don't bring Sanya into it. Remember, Sanya had been Magog's bitch for quite some time, and he was Rosanna's direct subordinate. If anyone could be said to know her MO, it would be Sanya. Yet he still got suckered by it.

 

Except the part where Dresden himself freely admits during that scene that before Lasciel, he would have bought the act like a sucker just like Michael and Sanya did. Reread the scene. Its outright stated that Harry saw through Rosannas manipulations because of what his experiences with Lasciel.

Except that Magog is basically a beast of burden as far as Denarians go. Heck, the hosts of that fallen literally wear the coin on a collar as though they were dogs. We have WoJ that states that there are basically two types of denarians. Those like Nicodemus who work together with their fallen in cooperation and understanding and those like Sanya and Rasmussen who are little more than puppets controlled by the fallen within. Sanya himself admits in Small Favors that with Magog, he was little more than a mindless beast.

Thats why I would put Harrys understanding above Sanyas even though I did remember that Sanya used to be a host. Harry struggled and fought with the shadow, learned to understand its tricks and resist them and in the end, actually turned the tables. And that was the shadow of Lasciel, the webweaver and the temptress who is obviously far more of a manipulator than Magog. Sanya basically just went mindlessly with the flow with Magog until Shiro, at which point he managed to throw the coin away.

I guess you might argue that Sanya might better understand "combat" denarians like Magog and Ursiel, while Harry better understands the ones like Nicodemus/Anduriel, Rosanna/? and Tessa/Imariel, who work as equal partners (well to the the extent that a mortal can). But the main point is that I would put Harrys understanding of the nature of Nicodemus and Anduriel above those of Michael or Sanya, even though they might have more raw information on the guy.

 

You're missing my point.

Sanya spent years as Rosanna's bootlick. He saw her in action, repeatedly. He knows how she operates, probably better than any other non-Denarian alive.

Dresden's experience with Lasciel definitely showed him some tricks, but no more than what Sanya watched unfold. It's not some magic thing that immediately gives him amazing insights. He spotted the trap because he was expecting a trap. Michael and Sanya are, by nature, far more trusting, which is why they didn't.

 

No, he did not. Thats the whole point. She played Sanya all along like a puppet and he never understood what she was. Not until the very end. The moment he actually learned and understood what she truly was, was also the point he abandoned the coin.

See for yourself:

Sanya never understood what the denarians were truly about while he was with them. He was a beast of burden for Magog and little more. The moment he actually developed enough independence to disobey Rosanna and actually learned the truth, was also the moment he abandoned the coin and left.

I am not saying Sanya does not understand how a group of criminals operates. From his perspective, thats probably what it was like. But he was never exposed to the "higher" level of truths of the group. The realities of collaborative fallen interactions were kept hidden from him. Thats why Rosanna ordered him to leave and not listen to the argument Rosanna and Tessa (the ones working with their fallen) had. He was never meant to learn of any of it. And he never did, except for that one single conversation which drove him away.

Thats nothing compared to Harrys interactions with Lash, where he understood the truth from the very start, and watched the master temptress in action for several years while simultaneously trying to convert her in turn.

Furthermore, Sanya was a part of Tessas group of Denarians. We learned that Tessa tends to use hosts who are already willing and eager and who don't fully understand whats going on. She does not care much for whether or not the host is talented or understands things.

Nicodemus is the one who is more selective in the type of hosts he chooses for his group of fallen and is willing to spend lots of time recruiting those he believes have great potential. Nicodemus cares more about the hosts ability, and is far more willing in using manipulation (such as throwing a coin at a small child to trick Harry into touching it and taking the shadow in) or even torture to recruit them.

Taken together, its pretty clear that the type of manipulation fallen who want to work with their hosts and take advantage of the hosts collaboration and free will such as Lasciel and Anduriel are up to, is very alien to Sanya who was basically a thug who took many years before he knew he was being manipulated.

One might argue that the fact that Michael and Sanya were trusting of someone that was actually willingly collaborating with her fallen as an equal like Rosanna, is infact inherent proof that they don't understand how things truly work at all. If they did understand at all, they would have understood she was playing them, no matter how trusting their inherent personalities might be.

 

While this is all very interesting, that wasn't the point I was making. Harry may well know the Denarians better as people, but Michael has gone up against their plots more times than he could probably count. He knows how Nicodemus tends to run his operations, how he uses his resources and the likely points where he'll betray whatever agreement he's made. Harry may know Nicodemus better as a person, but Michael knows him as one general knows another.

 

Hmm, good point.

Then again, Forthill would probably know Nicodemus on that level equally well. Maybe even better, since we know from Warrior that Forthill actually is more of a informant while Michael was the fighter.

So if Harry needs information about Nick, why would he draw Michael into the fight, when he knows that doing so would basically remove the angelic protections from both Michael and his family (which includes Maggie!). I mean Forthill would be a far more obvious person for Harry to ask.

Another is Mab herself. Mab certainly has access to a lot of information and a million ways to easily get more, and likely knows Nicodemus (a signer of the accords) extremely well. Then again, there could be somekind of bargain that prevents her from talking.

Actually, Ivy would be THE most obvious person to ask. She obviously has a huge grudge against Nicodemus and the order, and we know that Nicodemus has destroyed all the church records of himself several times through the centuries. But the Archive would have access to ALL of it. Ivy/The Archive would know Nicodemus on a level beyond ANYONE, and she has a justified reasons to try to and destroy him.

Heck, she might even have somekind of legal justification against Nicodemus, considering that she was the neutral arbiter in the Accords case between two signatories (Nicodemus and Marcone) and Nicodemus betrayed, captured and tortured her. I could see Mab as the creator of the accords finding it very fitting if Ivy were to help utterly screw Nicodemus over to start balance the scales between Nicodemus and Ivy for that transgression of the accords. Not to mention that Kincaid would likely make a good person on Harrys team anyway, and based on the interaction between them, he too knows Nicodemus personally. It would also be a very interesting to have Kincaid on the team, considering we now know that Kincaid was the one who SHOT Harry. Can you imagine the snark between them over that?

As a planner and assistant, what could Michael offer that would be worth giving up all the angelic protection he and his now has as a retired Knight, when Forthill, Ivy or maybe Mab could offer all he knows and more?

 

Might as well delete this, now.

 

Something I was thinking about, you may or may not remember that Harry sold parts of his Name to Chauster, a demon. Does anyone remember when this came back to bite him in the ass, or if it has yet to do so, when and how you think it will?

 

It almost certainly won't.

I think there was a discussion somewhere, maybe here in DLP or was it in the official Butcher forums, but basically I seem to recall there being a WoJ that everyone in the Wild Hunt saw Harry fight the outsider in his mind.

And in that fight, Harry screams out his full name. Which basically means that nearly everyone knows it now. Ah, I think I remember now. Butcher seemed to imply that everyone hearing Harrys name was not a big deal. He even referred to the part in the very first book that ends with Harry speaking out his full name (to the reader) and saying "conjure by it at your own risk" or somesuch. That was apparently foreshadowing. There was lots of discussion on why Harrys full name being public knowledge is not a major disaster, and what that means and whether its some effect of his starborn nature. I won't bother repeating that discussion, but basically that apparently does mean that the names sold to that demon are meaningless now.

As a sidenote, I seem to recall it being mentioned that since mortals have free will, their natures change. Which means that the way a mortal says his name changes too, as they go through life. Since Harry sold those names to that demon, he has gone through absurd list of life changing experiences. Even if we were to ignore whatever bizarreness protects Harry from naming shenanigangs, book 15 Warden Winter Knight Harry Dresden who wields soulfire has so little in common with the book 1 PI Harry Dresden that sold those names, that the power of those names would be near useless anyway. Harry has changed too much.

 

One thing I'm going to point out with this:

The Dresden Butcher referred to in that situation is a post-BAT Dresden, who, if the books go the seemingly most likely route, quite literally averted/prevented/saved the world from the Apocalypse. That's why he says "Conjure by it at your own risk."

Dresden is a dangerous motherfucker at that point, and he would be able to (and probably did) take on just about anything in existence save maybe the Archangels. He doesn't have to fear anyone using his name against him because they'd either be smart enough not to, or too unskilled/powerless/whatever to be able to actually do anything to him that he couldn't counter.

He doesn't have some magical protection from someone using his Name (for proof, just see Ferrovax at Bianca's party). He just becomes so well known, and feared, that he doesn't have to worry about "small" weaknesses like that.

That said, you're right that Chauncey lost his chance to act. The Names he has are, or at least should be, useless now.

 

I'm not sure. Harry was able to use Elaine's name about 20 years after he first learned it, albeit with the help of a soulgaze to go along with it. It stands to reason that if you know a person well enough to estimate what they've been through over the time between learning their name and the present, you'd be able to forge a connection with it.

Aside from that, I reckon having given his Name out will come back to bite him in the ass at some point. From a strictly story-wise point of view, it doesn't make sense for him to have done this and not suffer some consequences because of it.

 

It's wholly possible. We'll see if/when it happens.

If it does, I don't expect to see it before the BAT. Most likely as a mostly-forgotten Chekov's Gun to spring on Dresden at the most inopportune time.