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Skin Game [SPOILERS]

Discussion in 'Fanfic Discussion' started by Jon, May 22, 2014.

  1. Phantom of the Library

    Phantom of the Library Unspeakable

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    Now I just want Mirror!Dresden to summon Real!Dresden thinking it'll be simple to take him out, only to get his shit rolled and spend the rest of the novel underhandedly trying to take him out.

    Related.
     
  2. fuubar

    fuubar Headmaster

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    I don't have the quotes off hand as I heard them awhile back in various interviews that I'd listen to as background noise. But IIRC mirror!Dresden was not on good terms with the White Council - hence his need to fake his death via The!Dresden. So it seems to imply that he's got a few nasty tricks up his sleeve since he is 1) wanted by the WC and 2) been able to survive long enough to be able to set something like this up. Beyond that, keep in mind his go to plan is apparently to summon an alternate universe version of himself in order to fake his own death, that's pretty ballsy as far as plans go.

    Edited.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2014
  3. Agayek

    Agayek Dimensional Trunk DLP Supporter

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    Especially since the easiest way to fake one's own death, in that scenario, is to immediately kill the alternate-universe version the instant they're summoned, rearrange the scene such that it looks like they were the summoner, and then proceed to vanish.

    I fully expect Mirror Mirror to start with an attempted murder and for things to get more elaborate from there.
     
  4. Ryuugi Shi

    Ryuugi Shi Hierarch

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    In fairness:

    1) Harry basically sat out the entire war. Like, his only real involvement was at the very beginning and end, with a few exceptions--Ortega, for instance, and the White Court. He repeatedly said he stayed out of pretty much everything, sticking near Chicago*. Saying War honed him is a huge exaggeration, with Harry having something like a week of wild days or so every year, the rest being fairly dull.

    If anything, it'd be not training Molly that makes the difference.

    2) On the other hand, Harry doesn't take advantage of a lot of his resources, because moral hangups. We've always known that. If this Harry's willing to throw other versions of himself under the bus, and needs to, he's probably drawing on the full power of Bob and riding the Black Magic Gravy Train. So he probably is a lot stronger, too.

    Because let's face it, half the time Harry spends getting his ass kicked in any given book is because he doesn't bother using his powers the way he could. Like, Jim said he stopped with the potions to remove the obligatory Potion scene, yadda yadda--but in the story, what the hell is Harry doing not making potions anymore. I'd say the 'you didn't see anything' potion in FM was one of his best showings, magic-wise.

    And that's just the most basic stuff.

    *Which couldn't have done him any favors, what with him being the cause of the war in the eyes of the Council. And, in fairness, it was kind of a dick move.
     
  5. fuubar

    fuubar Headmaster

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    Hmm, well I'm not sure we know that 100% for sure. There are references to him and Carlos collecting Red Vampire teeth and things like that in I think ... White Night? And I know that there's at least the one comic, War Cry, that covers him doing stuff during the war. Whether he was as involved as others. *shrugs*
     
  6. Agayek

    Agayek Dimensional Trunk DLP Supporter

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    Dresden was definitely involved in the war. There's several mentions of him training baby Wardens, dealing with Red Court jackassishness, adventures with Ramirez against vampires, his experience with the war breeding paranoia and preparedness, etc. Hell, if memory serves, there's a sequence in I want to say Death Masks where he's ambushed by a ghoul near the beginning of the book and it's all but explicitly spelled out that such attacks have become a semi-regular thing.

    I think you're confusing Dresden's whole "I'm a Warden, but I have next to nothing to do with hunting down warlocks" schtick with his activities related to the war.

    The second point you raise is definitely spot on though.
     
  7. Zeelthor

    Zeelthor Scissor Me Timbers

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    War cry. Dresden was involved, even if he never saw the largest battles like Morgan.
     
  8. Ryuugi Shi

    Ryuugi Shi Hierarch

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    No, those were isolated incidents--he went down to...New Mexico? I think New Mexico for a week or two as a favor and came back. He had a few adventures like War Cry, though where that fits into things is unknown. He also gets periodic assassination attempts. That's all true.

    But he didn't fight in the war. As a Warden, he didn't join in the attacks or large battles and it was only rarely that he left the Chicago area--and it was never very long. He actually comments on that at some point, though I'll have to look up where.
     
  9. Agayek

    Agayek Dimensional Trunk DLP Supporter

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    That much is true, and I apologize if I gave the impression otherwise. Dresden never really left Chicago and, for the most part, avoided the heaviest of the fighting.

    But the war still had a rather profound impact on his mentality, combat experience, and general skill level, because he wasn't isolated from it entirely. He never waded in like Morgan, but he still dealt with all sorts of shit that he never would have otherwise and it taught him a hell of a lot of combat skill.

    My point is that without the war, all other things being equal, Dresden would have been significantly less capable with magic.
     
  10. Zeelthor

    Zeelthor Scissor Me Timbers

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    Correction: Significantly less capable with combat magic.
     
  11. Agayek

    Agayek Dimensional Trunk DLP Supporter

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    Actually, I would say magic in general. His preparation for and experience in dealing with the war would have drilled a lot of fundamentals into his head that had never seemed all that important before, and those would have rather far reaching consequences. It's a best-practices kind of thing, and it would make him much better in pretty much every field, not just combat.

    To bring it to a comparable real-world example, it'd kinda be like how spending a decade trying to master how to be a car mechanic means you would, simply by virtue of osmosis and cross-pollination of skills, end up as a pretty damn good electrician, or how studying high-level chemistry makes you pick up a lot of skill with physics. There's no such thing as a completely independent discipline, and a lot of the fundamentals carry over between related fields. His combat magic improving would help a hell of a lot with improving in other disciplines of magic.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2014
  12. Moridin

    Moridin Minister of Magic DLP Supporter

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    Agayek makes some good points, but it'd be important to remember,

    all other things aren't equal. This isn't simply Dresden who warred vs Dresden who didn't - Mirror Dresden's probably also seen some shit. I mean, if nothing else, he's Harry Dresden in a universe created by Jim Butcher.

    More seriously, though, I feel like Ryuugi's comment on Harry not going full on Cowl would be the differentiating factor - if Mirror Harry is indeed teh evulz, he's likely explored a lot more options that our Harry hasn't.

    Of course, that need not have always worked out for him - e.g. I doubt Harry would be anywhere near as effective as WK if he hadn't hardballed Mab into keeping his leash loose, while Mirror Harry experimenting with the same powers mightn't have had the same moral hangups and so the same caution.
     
  13. Datakim

    Datakim Chief Warlock

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    I would suspect there might be balancing things both ways.

    For example, I doubt that Mirror!Harry would have been given soulfire, and I doubt Mirror!Harry would have the experience of being dead, which was implied to eventually prove significant.

    On the other hand, I see no reason why Mirror!Nicodemus would not have given the same offer of a coin to Mirror!Harry. And a darker more desperate Harry probably would have found it a lot harder to say no, so Mirror!Harry might be a denarian.

    Would explain how he was able to pull off this obscure ritual to summon someone from another universe. It might also be a more proper sendoff to Lasciel. The canon Lasciel rather sucked, and was easily defeated. A disappointing sendoff, especially since odds are we won't see her again (canon-coin trapped in Hades Vault under tons of rubble).

    If he wants to however, Butcher has a chance to show a lot scarier Lasciel, by showing how she could have corrupted Harry himself.
     
  14. Zeelthor

    Zeelthor Scissor Me Timbers

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    Harry and Nicodemus being buddies. I can get behind that.
     
  15. R. E. Lee

    R. E. Lee Groundskeeper

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    I could see Denarian!Mirror!Harry, though I don't think that will happen because the Denarians tend to show up every fifth book, and they just got Skin Games.

    While we're talking about experiences Harry has that his doppelganger won't, him being Winter Knight isn't just big because of the Mantle, but also because of the hellish month he had in Arctis Tor before he started. Dealing with daily life-threatening events, without any focuses, I think significantly improved his control over his magic. It's a training that Mirror!Harry is unlikely to have done as well, though I'm sure he's had his own experiences.
     
  16. fuubar

    fuubar Headmaster

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    I'm doubtful of seeing Lasciel or Denarian!Alt!Dresden, which is unfortunate as it would be really interesting. I think that Bob being fully balls to the walls utilized for every dirty trick he's ever had can explain the obscure ritual knowledge though.

    Hell, depending on what the specific choice is at the end of GP, Michael might not have lived through the Biancas Ball, if for example Harry chose to not help him there (I'm doubting that's the choice but its in the right ball park of magnitude).

    I'm thinking that by the time Death Masks rolls around things are starting to deviate verrryyyy radically (even beyond the most likely obvious things such as non Vampire War).
     
  17. Agayek

    Agayek Dimensional Trunk DLP Supporter

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    While I really doubt this is gonna be it, I kinda want the choice that differs to be Dresden not trying to use Amoracchius against Lea.

    That would have some... interesting consequences later down the line.
     
  18. Zeelthor

    Zeelthor Scissor Me Timbers

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    Were Michael to fall in battle, I'm pretty sure Molly would've gone to Dresden, being pretty pissed off.
     
  19. Ryuugi Shi

    Ryuugi Shi Hierarch

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    Um. She'd have been way, way too young to do...anything at that time. I mean, not baby young or anything, but she'd have just been breaking into her teens.
     
  20. Zeelthor

    Zeelthor Scissor Me Timbers

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    First off, yeah. Duh. But I'm pretty sure that she'd grow up wanting revenge and that she'd find Dresden to get it.
     
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