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So, magical cores?

Discussion in 'Fanfic Discussion' started by Sey, Aug 22, 2016.

  1. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    The difference is that driving requires concentration whereas using magic does not. Literally all you do is say a word and wave a wand in a certain pattern. And sufficiently advanced wizards don't even do that. They just point their wand and think a word.
     
  2. Download

    Download Auror ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Going to have to disagree.

    There is clearly in canon a need to understand and think about how certain (probably more advanced) spells work. Magic clearly isn't as easy as a few wand movements and a few funny words, otherwise there would be no need to progress from simple magic in first year to advanced in seventh.

    So I think you clearly need to think and concentrate on what you're casting. I also think that you would need to concentrate more on more difficult magic. Constant concentration will eventual wear you down.
     
  3. Thaumologist

    Thaumologist Fifth Year ~ Prestige ~

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    There's more to it than just waving a stick and speaking gibberish though. Otherwise, Harry would have been able to cast the patronus the first time. He also would have been able to use the cruciatus properly on Bellatrix. And whilst Crouch junior isn't going to always be correct, he does state that the entire class could wave their wands and speak the incantation for the killing curse and he probably wouldn't even get a bloody nose. Don't forget the court's disbelief when it's brought up that Harry can summon a corporeal patronus - again, if it was just the words needed, then surely someone being able to say those words isn't strange?

    Whilst those might all be special cases, because they require emotions (happiness, hatred, and maybe more hatred?), the summoning charm also required practice. I don't have GoF to hand, but the HP wiki states that Harry was unsuccessful in early attempts to cast the spell. If knowing the words was all it took, then he shouldn't have failed.

    However, against that stance you have Flitwick's amusing story of Wizard Barufio, who "used an f, instead of s", which is an anecdote told to a group of first years. He does also make a deal about the wand movements - emphasisng the "swish and flick", so wand movements have to have some bearing on it. And Harry using "sectumsempra" with no idea what it does.
     
  4. Tasoli

    Tasoli Minister of Magic

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    Hate to break it to you Taure but it is contradicted by canon. In the first book even. Harry says it is more than that. I think it was in the first Transfiguration class.

    I don't have exact quote on hand but it was something like how magic was more than waving your wand and saying a funny word and they had to take a lecture and 20 minutes note taking just to learn how to transfigure a needle.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
  5. Lunanight

    Lunanight Squib

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    All that proves is that so long as a wizard knows the theory of a spell and has the knowledge to perform it, they will succeed. There is no magical cores, or exhaustion from using magic. The only thing that makes some wizards better than others is intelligence and understanding of magical theory. That's it. No exhaustion. No magical cores. Just knowledge and understanding.

    Even that isn't completely true since its called into question Harry in HBP when he casts Sectumsempra on his first try, with no theory or anything, he just knows the spell's name and was successful on the first try. Harry didn't learn theory about Sectumsempra, he didn't know the wand flicks needed, he just said the spell and let the curse do the work. Its not like Harry actually practised Sectumsempra, he just did nothing more than wave a wand and say a funny word... meaning that first-year Harry was wrong because Harry was both a first-year and a student who mostly relied on luck, Lily's love protection, and the help of those like Ron/Hermione/Dumbledore.

    What I'm saying is that if some wizards are better than others, it is because they are both more intelligent than others and also because they've read more magical theory. Knowledge is literally power. Wizards don't have a quantifiable amount of magic. They don't lose magic and get tired until their magic regenerates. There is no limit to how much a spell can be used each day... this isn't Naruto when certain Jutsu can only be used a few times a day due to exhaustion. That stuff is just fanon nonsense by those who want to either nerf magic and/or bash the wizarding world in fanfics.

    Besides, spells are actually much easier to cast than they seem. In fact, there are only two reasons why "advanced" spells aren't taught earlier. One they would require some theory, but if the theory is understood, they can be performed without any cost. If a wizard gets tired from using magic, it just means they are doing the spell incorrectly. Also, it would be REALLY irresponsible to be teaching certain spells to younger students. It wouldn't be because of difficulty reasons but due to those spells being too dangerous for younger students, but not so for older students.

    Harry's line in PS of it takes more than simply saying a few words and waving a wand is irrelevant. He's a first year who, unlike Hermione, didn't bother to read the theory of magic or even try magic on the Hogwarts Express. Harry couldn't even answer any of Snape's questions in their first Potions class, and before someone implies Snape's questions were too difficult for first-years, Hermione knew the answers to those questions but never got to answer them because Snape was ignoring her. If Hermione in her first year can answer Snape's questions, then obviously those question were probably stuff in the assigned first-year textbook. Meaning anyone who actually read the book and remembered the details should have been able to answer the question.

    Of course Harry would say magic takes more than that, because Harry isn't exactly a good example of someone who actually knows what they are doing. Hermione is an example of someone who knows what she is doing. She proves how magic is easier than it is made out to be (ignoring emotion-based spells like the Patronus and the Unforgivables). The Mauraders, Lily, and Snape are even better examples of people who know what they are doing. Dumbledore and Voldemort are THE example of what magic is capable of and are thus considered the strongest wizards in canon. Harry is the same kid who took a lantern to the Restricted Section in PS because he couldn't even cast Lumos.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
  6. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    I have written extensively on this exact subject (see the headcanon document in my signature). It's the conundrum of HP magic:

    A) We know that magic is difficult, and involves more than just the wand movements and incantation.

    B) We see that at the time of casting, with rare exceptions, magic involves nothing except for the wand movement and incantation.

    The solution I present is that the bit that makes magic difficult, the "extra" element that is referred to in that PS quote, is not something that a wizard actively does when they cast a spell, but rather is a passive factor. You point out in your post that they have to listen to a lecture and take notes. That's rather telling, I think. The extra element is understanding what you're doing. Wizards have to understand the magic behind the spell they're casting, but they don't actually have to think of it at the moment they cast the spell. It just has to be in their mind somewhere, part of their body of knowledge.

    This neatly explains pretty much everything in canon. You can't just come along and cast advanced magic, even though you know the words and movements, because you don't understand what you're doing. But at the same time, once you understand the magic behind a spell, you can pick up new spells of the same kind very easily. So Harry, by HBP, understands the Dark Arts pretty well, so he can cast Sectumsempra successfully without even knowing what it does. A first year doing the same thing would not get the same result.

    To go a level deeper, the study and theory isn't itself an end, but rather a means to understanding magic on an intuitive level. So someone who genuinely understands theory will cast more powerful magic than someone who only just grasps it enough to regurgitate it in an exam. And some people are talented enough that they have a naturally intuitive understanding of magic, which allows them to cast simple magic without a wand from an early age (Lily, Riddle).
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
  7. Sey

    Sey Not Worth the Notice DLP Supporter

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    So I have a question. Could someone theoretically just cast spells endlessly? Will they ever tire under cannon magic rules?
     
  8. ScottPress

    ScottPress The Horny Sovereign –§ Prestigious §– DLP Supporter

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    If you take into account only the magical limitations, then I would say yes, but people gots to sleep, bruh. Even just sitting on a chair, doing nothing, will eventually tire you out and you'll doze off. Or die of thirst, or starvation. No magical cores needed.
     
  9. Lunanight

    Lunanight Squib

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    Theoretically, anyone can cast spells endlessly in canon. The only reason you barely see it is because for the first five books, the Trio and anyone their age couldn't do nonverbal magic. Meaning to verbally cast spells rapidly, there would always be the risk that they may or may not accidentally pronounce the spell incorrectly (meaning their spell might fail or backfire on them), like a tongue-twister. Whereas with nonverbal magic, that wouldn't be an issue since there is no incantations. Hence why adults in the HP universe generally duel at a higher level since they can fire off more spells in quick succession than someone who has to say every spell verbally.

    There is nothing stopping someone endlessly casting spells, especially if it was nonverbally. Molly vs Bellatrix seemed to implied to be similar to this, where both sides were rapidly firing spells back and forth without stop. Same with Voldemort dueling against McGonagall, Kingsley, and Slughorn. Even Fred and George showed that they could apparate as many times as they wanted around the house with no exhaustion. They only reason they were told to stop by Molly was because it was deemed annoying, not out of concern for health reasons.

    In canon, magic never drains or tires the user to any extent. Harry learning the Patronus was an exception since he was practicing with a Boggart-Dementor, and THAT thing made him tired, not the Patronus. In every other case, the Patronus never tires a person out. The Dementors' effect on a person is entirely different.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
  10. Blorcyn

    Blorcyn Chief Warlock DLP Supporter DLP Silver Supporter

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    I don't see how the statement (and all your previous long posts on magic as you've tried to reconcile A and B, which are always very enjoyable) gels with your immediate reply to my post.

    Doesn't it seem like driving or some other learned skills fits the theory quite well? In Alexandra Potter or The One He Feared, don't you make references to musicality and other such things where ability is multifactorial, owed to many different intrinsic and extrinsic parts?

    One can't get in a car, with absolutely no previous exposure, and instantly drive. It is taught, and eventually becomes something that requires essentially no thought (it's the roads and others that demand your attention). Isn't it the same with an instrument like the Piano and a piece you know like the back of your hand? At one point it was completely beyond you.

    To me, so it is with magic.

    And in fact, in my last post, I was trying to point out that the most substantive part of the fatigue is essentially magicless. It's objective based. Molly cooking a dinner for seven might be a bit worn out - not because of the magic, the medium by which she's cooking, but because she's cooking. A wizard may not be tired out by apparating to work, but he may be shattered by the end of his day spelling magical windows into working order.

    If this doesn't seem like something objectionable to you, and if you feel that we're at cross purposes because the fatigue isn't 'magical' or something to that effect, then good. That was my point and I mustn't have explained myself very well.

    My essential point was that a character shouldn't be purely drained by a spell and black out, as I'm sure many of us have seen in fanfics, or anything to that effect. But, conversely, it shouldn't be the case that a wizard should get through a whole day spelling this and that and not have had a tiring day.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
  11. Lunanight

    Lunanight Squib

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    But that is just that: wizards DO get though whole days of using spells without having tiring days. The only way they would be tired is whatever they are using spells on can fight back such as a magical creature or another wizard. Hogwarts Professors aren't tired from casting spells or brewing Potions all day, nor are the Ministry workers tired.

    However a professional duelist would obviously be tired after being hit by other spells, or someone working with magical creatures would be tired if they are attacked by those creatures directly. They wouldn't be tired from casting spells themselves, but they would be tired from being on the receiving end of powerful spells or from an attack from a magical creature.

    The only way that a wizard would get tired while using magic is if a third party is responsible (e.g. a magical creature attacking them, or if they are in a duel and are struck with several spells).

    I just don't see the fanon obsession with making wizards tired after using magic when canon has shown that wizards can cast magic and never get tired as a result of that. It contradicts canon, and even if someone tries to argue that it doesn't contradict anything, it is too limiting and comes off to me as trying to rationalize magic with scientific explanations. The only way someone would get tired if they are physically attacked by a creature, or hit with powerful spells directly.

    Obviously if a wizard is hit by a powerful magical creature over and over again, eventually they are going to either collapse or get outright killed just from the physical pain of the attacks, or from whatever poison is within that creature (e.g. Nagini). But a wizard casting spells? Absolutely no exhaustion or tiredness involved, even if it went on all day. The only way a wizard would physically or emotionally suffer while using magic is the thing they were using magic on (e.g. an Acromantula, Dragon, Dementor, etc) was directly inflicting physical or emotional pain to the wizard.

    TL;DR: Wizards never get tired from casting spells or making Potions. Not even all day.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
  12. Puzzled

    Puzzled High Inquisitor

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    Are they really doing magic all day, like casting spells every second of every day? I doubt it. I don't think we see a single extended set of casts in the entire series, so it's possible that people would tire, they just recover quickly.
     
  13. Blorcyn

    Blorcyn Chief Warlock DLP Supporter DLP Silver Supporter

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    I think I'm missing a central point of your argument. It reads to me like you're saying being attacked magically is the one circumstance that would cause (?Magical?) tiredness in a wizard?

    Do you mean, when a specific sleeping charm/curse is used?

    Why do you think being magically attacked causes tiredness? I think injury is a better descriptor.

    Besides, I believe Ministry employees and Professors would be tired after a day's work, casting spells and whatnot.
     
  14. Tasoli

    Tasoli Minister of Magic

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    That has nothing to do with what I said. Never did I said anything about cores I hate that stuff. So if you ever again imply that I am defending something like that again I will become really really rude you got that?

    Fucking shit buckets lecturing me about irrevalant stuff.
     
  15. Lunanight

    Lunanight Squib

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    When I say being attacked would make a wizard tired, I did mean injury, though I probably shouldn't have been as vague as I was. What I mean is that a Ministry worker wouldn't feel tired or exhausted from doing a day's work of spells, however they would definitely be affected if they were injured by something while doing their job. For example, casting spells non-stop against Nagini wouldn't tire a wizard. However Nagini's venom would do so much damage, with or without its venom taken into consideration. I don't think any amount of spellcasting could make a wizard more tired than the amount of physical/emotional pain a powerful magical creature could inflict. I'm sure Charlie wouldn't feel tired doing his job of looking after dragons unless he was actually injured by a dragon.

    The thing is that people are applying muggle logic to the magical world. To me, magic would never make a wizard tired no matter what. Its already canon that magic doesn't follow any rational or scientific boundaries. I admit we never see a wizard casting spells for an entire day, but that is because there isn't any time in canon that event would ever crop up. The Trio wouldn't need it. Hogwarts professors wouldn't need it. Nor would the Death Eaters. The reason we never see wizards casting spells all day is because they don't need to. Generally they don't have to keep doing the same spells to do their job, since once or twice would be enough. Though the books being entirely from Harry's POV may explain why endless spellcasting is never seen.

    The closest thing we get to non-stop casting (albeit not all day, given that duels generally end with a winner quickly) without exhaustion is Molly vs Bellatrix, and to a grander extent, Voldemort's 3v1 against McGonagall, Kingsley, and Slughorn. In those cases, the only tiring thing would be getting hit by curses, not actually casting the spells. Voldemort wouldn't get tired no matter how many times he uses the Killing Curse, or any other spell, and the same goes for any other character using any other spell.

    There is never anything in canon that limits how many times a wizard can do spells in a day, or of any duration. There have been duels that occur with rapid-fire spellcasting in canon. JKR has said something to the effect of magic not being something that is bound to physics/science. Literally everything points to the direction that wizards never get tired using magic.

    Casting spells wouldn't exhaust or tire a wizard. Hell, the only magic that would even come close to contradicting that is making a Horcrux due to the fact it rips the soul in half, inflicting physical and/or emotional pain to the caster. Remorse would also kill the "caster" if they've split their soul so many times, since Hermione implied/stated that Voldemort would probably die if he tried to feel remorse.

    Assuming that the spell doesn't inflict self-harm, a wizard would be able to endlessly cast spells without getting tired. Theoretically, a wizard could cast the Summoning Charm (or any other spell) all day without getting tired. The wizard would probably get bored doing the same thing (Summoning Charm) over and over again, but never tired.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
  16. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Why do wizards need to get tired?
     
  17. Blorcyn

    Blorcyn Chief Warlock DLP Supporter DLP Silver Supporter

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    Ignoring the stuff about injury = tiredness because I think something's getting lost in translation, the question that you and aekiel are both asking I feel is: does a wizard need to get tired?

    HP magic doesn't follow any scientific rules, no, but it does follow rules. Jk, in the beedle the bard stuff, in her interviews, and even in the main series is pretty clear that the daily strifes and problems of being human and the mortal coil are not circumvented by having magic.

    Tiredness as a physical detriment, yeah, a wizard can fix that. But fatigue, weariness, whatever you want to call it instead - I think that's an essential part of the human experience. And wizards don't generally get to do away with that stuff.

    Edit: 400th post in six years. I regret this somewhat.
     
  18. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    You're failing to distinguish between the performance of magic and the learning of magic. The difference with driving is that even after mastering the skill, you still have to engage your brain when you drive - you have to concentrate. But as far as we know from magic as canon presents it, there is no mental performance involved in the vast majority of casting magic. Casting a spell you've already learnt is as mentally tiring as recalling the name of a city you've studied. Studying a city takes time and effort and may even involve physical exploration; saying its name is easy and can be done all day.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2016
  19. chaosattractor

    chaosattractor Groundskeeper

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    Because they're human beings with active metabolisms?
     
  20. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    You miss my point. Why do wizards need to have a drawback from a storytelling point of view? Usually it's to give them a weakness other species can use against them, but in HP the conflict is wizard vs wizard, with magic being a plot device rather than an internally consistent system.

    So, why do wizards need to get tired?
     
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