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Tom Riddle and the Elder Wand

Discussion in 'Fanfic Discussion' started by chaosattractor, Apr 1, 2016.

  1. chaosattractor

    chaosattractor Groundskeeper

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    Well, this is my first real post.

    Basically I'm writing this canon-divergent fanfic (like, diverges at Voldemort's birth) and I've hit a huge turning point that I've been avoiding thinking about for weeks.

    It's early 1945 in this scene, and Dumbledore has just faced off with Grindelwald. In this universe he was unknowingly followed by Tom R̶i̶d̶d̶l̶e̶ Gaunt, his brilliant but unsettling protégé, who catches up only to find an exhausted, heavily injured but victorious Dumbledore beside his comatose and bound opponent. Several feet away he sees an unfamiliar wand - Grindelwald's, he realizes, though he's ignorant of just how extraordinary it is - and he picks it up to hand it over to his mentor.

    This is where I hit a roadblock. It's implied that by his duel with Grindelwald, Dumbledore had lost much of his fascination with the Hallows and was never that enamored with the Elder Wand in the first place. It's not a burden he particularly wants to bear, and with that sort of out in front of him...would Dumbledore have Tom keep the wand? Capitalizing on his ignorance of what it is, and trusting that it won't be particularly unusual in his hands since he isn't its true master?

    There's soo much potential down that plotline, including exploring the sort of magic the wand can produce in the hands of someone who's willing to use it and also an intelligent powerhouse in their own right. It's just, in this fic Tom is a sociopath but also a force of chaotic good (at a point in my planned future he actually abolishes Sorting), and if he realizes he holds the Elder Wand...it's too much of a corrupting influence for me to gloss over. I could dodge the pull of Horcrux-immortality with him having respect for his soul and sanity, but I can't think my way out of this one. And if I can't - if I can see that the Elder Wand in Tom's hands will lead to a Dark Lord - then Dumbledore should be able to see that too.

    Help please? Could 1945 Dumbledore's sentimentality and lingering grief overwhelm his reason? And more importantly how the heck do I give Tom the Elder Wand and not turn him into V̶o̶l̶d̶e̶m̶o̶r̶t̶ uhhh...shit, you can't make a good anagram with Tom Marvolo Gaunt
     
  2. H_A_Greene

    H_A_Greene Unspeakable –§ Prestigious §– DLP Supporter

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    I think your biggest step is hammering out the hows and whys of this Tom's youth and education throughout Hogwarts. What was it that made Albus intervene and accept Tom as his protege? Did he see something in the boy that reminded him of his own youth, or of Grindelwald, that he wanted to stamp out/endorse/temper to be better? What changed that could prevent this Tom from lusting after immortality via Horcrux, given the flow of knowledge that Albus would provide as a teacher, the insights into magic and world-views that would gradually rub off on the child? Remember that at that time, Albus was not the man we see in Harry Potter's period, not the wholly wise figure but one that is a little more vulnerable to his emotions and the settings taking place, still harboring some measure of grief over not only Grindelwald but also of Ariana and Aberforth. You don't have to play it up but take that into consideration.

    I could see Albus allowing Tom to keep the wand if he in turn kept a close eye on Tom, having seen the allure of the Hallows and their danger so clearly, but you need to justify it enough in the background you'd have built that Tom isn't so quick to succumb to the temptation. It would have to take years, perhaps decades, a slow burden that builds and builds inside of Tom's head, or else no, I don't think that Albus would really take that chance despite his own resistance of holding a position of power(he refused Minister for Magic multiple times).
     
  3. World

    World Oberstgruppenführer DLP Supporter Retired Staff

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    One the one hand, this would be the perfect time for Dumbledore to do something stupid. While before he had a clear purpose in stopping Gellert, now he has time to reflect on how everything went to shit and his part in it (and the part the Hallows have played). It would be pretty ironic if, in this situation, he decided that the best way to prevent another dark lord from rising is to give the most powerful wand to Tom Amoral Von Gut (and you said there aren't any good anagrams ;)).

    I don't think he would be silly enough to put any faith in his ignorance however. If there is one thing you can rely on, it's that Aunt Groval Momot (alright, kinda reaching here) will find stuff out.

    He could, however, decide to rely on the fact he is still the wands master and, depending on what he actually thinks of Mortal Gutvoo Man (I give up), keep this as an ace in the hole. The wand may be powerful, but it won't work as well against its actual Master, would it? And, as we know from his refusal of a political post, Dumbledore might be loathe to give himself any more power.
     
  4. chaosattractor

    chaosattractor Groundskeeper

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    Oh, I've worked out Tom and Albus' history together. All that's externally *different* in this universe is that Merope Gaunt left her father's surname at the orphanage rather than her, uhh, "husband's". So while Tom is still very much the disturbing child from canon, he gets a certain recognition and validation from the moment he sets foot in Hogwarts as well as less blind enthusiasm from his teachers. Except, ironically, Dumbledore, who watches him with less paranoid suspicion once it's clear *why* Tom sets off his alarms (Slughorn fights to be the one to contact young Master Gaunt, and so Dumbledore doesn't learn of his...darker side firsthand). So he starts taking a more positive interest in him, working to turn his physical disgust at the extant Gaunts into disgust at their ideologies. In addition, the Basilisk plot can't work because everyone and their mother knows he's the Heir. The long and short of it is that Tom quickly grows sick and tired of the constant mistrustful attention, and Dumbledore attempts to steer him on a more Ravenclaw-ish path.

    And yeah, a big part of Dumbledore potentially trusting him with the wand is that he can take it back, by force if necessary (since the wand won't work against him). In addition, it's a non-Ring-accelerated version of his HBP plan to let the wand's power die with him.

    Remember, Tom is barely eighteen at this point. I suppose the real question is "does 1945 Dumbledore think he'll be able to handle Tom no matter what happens, even with the Wand at play"?

    Or maybe I could just let Mortal Gutvoo Man happen.

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  5. Zeelthor

    Zeelthor Scissor Me Timbers

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    The key to making any story focused around Voldemort interesting is to fix the huge flaw in his character that JKR left. He's basically wizard-Hitler, only less effing likeable somehow.

    With Dumbledore taking a closer interest, you could turn him into a character with some manner of interesting motivation. The problem is that if you turn him into a force of chaotic good, you're short one villain.

    You'll need to think of a new one that they'll need to gang up on. I suppose you could have Harry and Voldemort clash regardless, but without the layers upon layers of plot armour from the books, Harry would be complete boned.
     
  6. chaosattractor

    chaosattractor Groundskeeper

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    Yeah, I have *plenty* of conflict and motivation for this story. He's the villain so to speak in the first quarter or so of the story, until his character development is done. I'm actually thinking of having him do a very brief stint in Azkaban, as part of the "respect for his soul" growth.

    The main "villain" (antagonist, really) is Muggles, or more accurately the atomic bomb. I always thought it was rather daft that wizards remained so dismissive of Muggles after such a show of power. So in this universe the wizarding world is badly shocked out of its complacence when the magical communities in Hiroshima and Nagasaki are obliterated in a fraction of a second, even with their shields against more normal war damage like regular bomb fire and debris. In addition, the fallout causes some interesting mutations in magical folk (including loss of [control over] magic). Some factions demand retribution against Muggles, others point out that that's a war they're in no way assured of winning, and the smarter ones among them are apprehensive of what it means that sufficient levels of radiation can interfere with magical energy.

    The face of the villainy is a group of subversive Squibs in high Muggle places who find themselves with a miraculous new potential weapon (if you've watched Legend of Korra, think Amon and the Equalists but less strawman-y). So most of the external conflict is combatting the Squib Equalists, but underneath that there's also researching a permanent counter to radiation sickness and implementing much-needed reform (since the Squibalists have a point)
     
  7. chaosattractor

    chaosattractor Groundskeeper

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    Oh no I don't think Harry's appearing as anything other than a baby in this. The Marauder's Era has a much more interesting dynamic for my purposes (plus I can't delay the plot for half a century)

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  8. Jason

    Jason Squib

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    I do think that Dumbledore would give the wand to Tom since I think that Dumbledore is a lot more arrogant in his youth so he would think that he could control Tom, no matter Toms talent-especially since the wand would really be Dumbledore's and not Tom's.

    Of course there is a good argument either way so my advice is to just choose the option that would make the plot advance the most/make it more interesting.

    Also, do you know what you are naming your story? It sounds interesting and I would like to read it when it is posted.
     
  9. chaosattractor

    chaosattractor Groundskeeper

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    "A Gaunt Concerto". I might actually end up splitting it into a series at some point, to bring it down to a scope I can handle. As it is the plot spans over fifty years, and there are multiple major conflicts.

    The ages in this thing are so weird. It's hard writing an equal-ish relationship between Tom and Dumbledore when one is 18 and the other is 64. Then again I can't help but picture a much younger man, like early forties at worst.

    Hey I just thought of something - why not reverse their positions a bit? Have Tom arrive earlier and disarm the duelling Grindelwald because he gives -2 fucks about a "fair fight" or whatever, allowing Dumbledore to land a final decisive blow. Dumbledore's quietly panicking because Tom's the master of the wand now - did he come with that plan in mind? Is he going to have to duel his student? Was their companionship all a ploy? - but quickly realizes Tom has no idea what he's just done. So he takes the wand and pretends all is well. Which places him in the unenviable position of suppressing all knowledge of the wand's tracks while making sure Tom is as powerful as he can be so he can die undefeated.

    Or the other, completely insane option: Make Tom Gaunt Master of Death...

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  10. H_A_Greene

    H_A_Greene Unspeakable –§ Prestigious §– DLP Supporter

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    As much as I'd like to see Tom earn himself the Deathstick, there is no way that a boy at that age is going to get a suckerpunch in on Gellert Grindelwald dueling Albus Dumbledore. They are titans of comparable reaction to spells and debris, and in their prime. I do not believe that either of them would be taken by surprise, even with a back turned. They should be so well attuned to the field around them that it isn't feasible. And if I may be so bold, barring a select few slathering over the base concept, I think a lot more of your fanbase/readers would react with critique to Tom doing this and actually pulling it off.

    Now, you could still show that Tom is willing to try and stab Gellert in the back to give Albus the win, only for Gellert to turn the tables and either strike back, forcing Tom and Albus both to try to defend the young wizard from whatever is sent his way, or to flat-out take Tom captive in order to force Albus to submit. In that situation, maybe, you could justify Tom pulling off something to distract Gellert and allow Albus to disarm him, or some brilliant but asinine surprise that allows Tom to disarm Gellert, but you'd have to do it with care.
     
  11. chaosattractor

    chaosattractor Groundskeeper

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    I...think there's a fair bit of fanon as per duelling colouring this reaction. In canon I don't think there's a single situation where we're shown a wizard dealing with a fight that's not head-on (as in, they know who all their opponents are and where they are, and people who aren't explicitly "their opponent" don't interfere). I definitely don't recall any feats of hypercognition while already engaged in a duel. In fact, the only sort of comparable situation is Dumbledore letting Draco disarm him, which is completely inconclusive seeing as he, well, *let* him do it.

    And Tom is not just a boy of 18. When I say he's a disturbing child, I mean he has gone down his canon path (including toying with Horcruxes) and then some, plus he's had almost two years of Dumbledore mentorship that's actually more "teach this boy hands-on magic" than "try to mould him into the sort of person who would walk to his death while struggling with my own feelings over the issue". Dumbledore has been teaching him to be able to help protect/lead/whatever it is magical Britain needs, especially if he fails. Though he somewhat naively thought he'd have more time before he *had* to face Grindelwald, or that he wouldn't need to (plus shame and love and grief and all that shit).

    All this is part of why, Dark Lord suspicions aside, Dumbledore would even consider letting the Elder Wand remain in the mastery of an eighteen year old and a student at that. I'm rambling so my point is, Tom is of course nowhere near their league in terms of experience, power or knowledge, but neither of them knows he's there and more importantly they're both more than occupied with each other, as well as being equals or very close to equals. Especially if they're duelling at the speed and power you're envisioning; [metaphorically] turning to deal with an unknown threat is already distraction enough for a hit or several from Dumbledore.

    I mean, it's sort of like Harry shooting a spell at Voldemort during his big duel with Dumbledore at the end of OotP. He could block it with ease but in that situation that split second could cost him the fight. Then compound that with Harry being his 7th book counterpart but more talented and also no-one knows he's there.

    ...wait, what happens when an Expelliarmus rebounds?
     
  12. Bloodknight

    Bloodknight Disappeared

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    If you mean rebounds off a wall I dont think it would. I always assumed they dissapated against the wall. But I don't think he should disarm him maybe distracts him and then dumbledore finishes him. He souldnt be master because while dumbledore dosent want power he would still take it I honestly cant see him trusting him with that espicially if he is legitimatly the master I can only see him taking it if he isnt the master.
     
  13. Catman

    Catman DA Member

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    I do not think it is consistent with Dubledore's cannon character, even if it 50 years later, to let Tom keep the wand. Dumbledore was the type of person to use his own death to keep a child safe, if he belives the wand to be evil / corrupting, he would keep it from Tom, if not because he thinks Tom is the type of person to abuse it, than because Tom is still a child and he wouldn't want to put the temptation on him.
     
  14. theimmortalhp

    theimmortalhp Third Year

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    I completely disagree with this. Canon provides a very skewed view of how fights work because for most of the series, Harry isn't actually at war. He's just caught in unfortunate situations by death eaters and he essentially has to fight his way out. Then in the seventh book, he, Ron, and Hermione spend most of their time away from everyone else trying to find the Horcruxes, and when the do fight, they're, again, just trying to get away (Malfoy Manor). The Battle of Hogwarts is the only real "war zone" type situation we see, and it's the first situation that we see comparable to Grindelwald's war. It's chaotic, there's spells flying everywhere, and it's hard to tell what's going on (e.g. Fred's death was basically just poor luck).

    And what you have to realize is that by 1945, Grindelwald has spent six whole years fighting in these types of battles against some of the greatest witches and wizards that his enemies had to offer. That's how he established his reputation as one of the most powerful wizards ever. And that means six years of people who could've disarmed him by taking him by surprise, but who still failed to do so. Indeed many of these people were likely more powerful or skilled than 18 year old Tom Riddle, and I can't imagine over six years that there were no surprise assassination attempts or anything of the sort.

    Just from a narrative perspective, it seems really cheap for Tom to simply cast an Expelliarmus and disarm Gellert Grindelwald, full-time badass and genocidal maniac. It's a complete let down for the reader similar to those fics where teenage Harry walks up behind Dumbledore, casts an Expelliarmus, and becomes the Master of Death. I'm completely sure that it can be written well, but I think it's really hard to avoid seeming gimmicky and trite.

    This is, I think, the best argument in favor of Tom disarming Grindelwald, and I don't really have a good in-universe explanation against it, but I once again fall back on the narrative argument.
     
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