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Turncoat - Discussion Thread [Epic Spoilers]

Discussion in 'Fanfic Discussion' started by Jon, Apr 7, 2009.

  1. Sauce Bauss

    Sauce Bauss Second Year ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    I guess I was overestimating the abilities of the island. For some reason I thought it made Dresden Omniscient, or maybe even Omnipresent. He can "see" everything on the island, so while the island itself wouldn't recognize the traitor, He would.

    One thing that supports the island being able to recognize people is that the GateKeeper was wary of setting foot there, because the island held a grudge. So it must have some way to identify individuals. However he has been there before so the other traitor wouldn't apply. :\
     
  2. Midknight

    Midknight Middy is SPAI! DLP Supporter Retired Staff

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    2 good points.
     
  3. afrojack

    afrojack Chief Warlock DLP Supporter

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    Perhaps the island's grudge is specifically against the Gatekeeper, which is interesting for any number of reasons. Dresden describes the omniscience not as seeing them, but simply knowing that they're there. I think the island just registers the presence of human beings, much the way it'll tell him how many rabbits are on it or whatever. I can't be assed to go back and see if it ever tells him exactly who someone is, but that seems to be the case.
     
  4. Ragon

    Ragon Dark Lord

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    Im far more interested in the consequences for taking the island than the traitor personally. The island represents a serious gain for Dresden. If he does it right it could easily become a haven in times of desperation even more so than in Turn Coat. I doubt Mab, Titania, the Merlin, or anyone else with any serious importance is just going to let his claiming the island go unnoticed.
     
  5. afrojack

    afrojack Chief Warlock DLP Supporter

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    Not only that, but you know that was foreshadowing when the Gatekeeper mentioned the immense well of power. Just by mentioning it, he has made its (probably imminent) use inevitable. At some point, Harry is going to come across something that will make him think he needs to access the innate power of Demonreach, and he'll do it if it helps someone else. If the link between him and the island enables him to summon that power even when he isn't physically on the island, with the aid of Soulfire, we'll see him start to exercise powers in the realms of wizards centuries his elder, and perhaps even Senior Council status magic. That would put the fear into a great deal of enemies, which would make them try even harder to kill him.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2009
  6. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    I'm just happy that the series is only just now hitting it's approximate halfway point. There's so much room for fun things to happen.

    And yeah, Demonreach is going to be a nice trump card for Harry at some point. I can easily see Harry getting up into the "Senior Council" level as far as ability goes before the series ends.

    It's great how this series has so many overarching themes and enemies in addition to the ones that are wrapped up within each book. Seriously kickass.
     
  7. Jangel

    Jangel Earl of Someshit

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    I just hope he doesn't run out of ideas/get dropped by publisher/die/start reusing central plots by the end.
     
  8. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Somehow I doubt this. Firstly, if it were that easy more people would be doing it.

    Secondly, Harry already has the raw power needed to be in the Senior Council level. It's skill he lacks. Though of course more power would be a bonus. Thirdly, we have to remember Butcher's statement about Demonreach. I'm fairly sure that nothing good for Dresden is going to come of his being bonded with the island.

    Remember: in the Dresdenverse, there's no such thing as an artificial powerboost that doesn't screw you over.

    And I don't think he'd be able to use its power while off the island.
     
  9. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    Hrm. Is there canon evidence for Dresden already having the raw power needed for the Senior Council? I know it's been said that in raw power he ranks in the top 30 or 40 wizards worldwide, but I had the impression that while he was damn close to having their raw power he wasn't *quite* there. Maybe in another 5 years. The statement I'm quoting though could have been from an early book and therefore it's already been 5 years, I don't know.

    That's almost irrelevant though, when compared to your next point Taure -- he lacks the skill to compete with them even if he had more raw power.

    As for Demonreach, well, I'd agree he probably can't use the power while he's off the island, but considering how much power we might be talking about he could still use it to affect things off the island. I.e. He could hang out on the island and send curses and whatnot soaring off to other parts of the world. Sort of like McCoy sent a Satellite crashing down onto his target from some distance away. I also wonder if it might provide him with an increase in skill at using a large source of power once he starts playing around with it. That experience alone could go a long way towards getting him into Senior Council range even without a power boost.

    Thank goodness for good writing. I wonder about Soulfire though, since that was gifted to him and doesn't yet appear to have side effects. I hadn't thought about that until just now.
     
  10. afrojack

    afrojack Chief Warlock DLP Supporter

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    Well, Soulfire is a power he earned by "resisting" Lasciel, and was given to him by an archangel. My gut tells me that one was a gift.

    As far as Demonreach goes, what I was saying was just a thought. But gaining its power isn't "that easy," because Dresden had to win the island over first in a test of wills, which most wizards would have lost. Yes, such a power would come at a price, but Dresden is willing to pay a lot when he feels there's no other option.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2009
  11. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    Yeah, it's also my impression that he got Soulfire without any strings attached. He did earn that one. Rock on.

    I had the impression that gaining it's power was "that easy." For Dresden at least. I don't know if it would have for anyone else. Dresden has some sort of screwy connection with things involving the Outside. I forget which book it was, but it was said at some point that he should not have been able to win the fight with the demon DuMorne sent after him, and that he only won because of something Maggie did.

    Eh, I don't recall the specifics. But my impression here was that Demonreach was a lot wimpier in Dresden's case than he would have been in most others. I mean, seriously, the Gatekeeper could wipe the floor with Dresden before breakfast, but he's scared to set foot on the island? Because of Demonreach that Harry seemed to have relatively little trouble cowing? Something is off with that.
     
  12. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    I thought that in the Dresdenverse raw power didn't change, just skill?
     
  13. afrojack

    afrojack Chief Warlock DLP Supporter

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    JB seems to explain it somewhat like a muscle. Dresden mentions that "for raw, brute strength" he was in the top 30 wizards on the planet, meaning he can sustain magic use for long periods of time, or pack a harder punch into something like an evocation, which is why he needs a focus (Staff, rod) to not injure himself.

    Luccio mentions that even before her body change, she would still be less able to perform a certain spell than Harry. I can't recall the specifics, but it was something along the lines of pure magical grunt work, involving stamina that she doesn't have but Dresden does. But while claiming to have less of that type of strength than Harry, produces beams of fire so thin and dense that they act like lightsabers. He has more talent, more strength, but she has been working with her magic for much longer. Her mind has been channeling and forming it for centuries as opposed to Dresden's <40. Knowing where and how much force to apply making that much of a difference, and doing it that quickly (like in a spell) suggests that it's simply a result of how long someone has been doing the same task, like muscle memory. He keeps describing elder wizards as being able to get more strength out of less magic.

    We hear him describe exhaustion on a consistent basis as well. All in all, it would seem like something you could continuously exercise and hone as you got older, to be stronger with less effort. Maybe performing magic, which seems to be a biological trait passed through mothers, is something like constantly training a, for lack of a better term, magical muscle. The body can be strengthened and geared towards a specific purpose, like a dance or a martial art. The mastery of something like that takes both skill and power, wherein the muscles, due to years of repetition, have learned not only the most powerful way to do something, but also the most precise and efficient way, while also allowing for the factor of natural talent like Dresden's. Perhaps complex, powerful wizardry would be a similar process, in that Dresden will get stronger as a result of acquiring more skill.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2009
  14. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    Hm, for some reason I had the impression that as wizards got older their magic got stronger. Not just better or more skilled, but that the amount they could work with actually increased with age.

    I'll have a look around the books this weekend and see if I can find some evidence either way. I've only read most of them once and it's been a while, and now I'm curious to see what's actually been said.

    Cool.
     
  15. afrojack

    afrojack Chief Warlock DLP Supporter

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    When Dresden says he's using his will to perform a spell, he mentions the exchange of energy, saying that magic must come from somewhere, must be powered by something. But I doubt the energy of an effort of will is equivalent to huge blasts of fire. Being an older, more powerful wizard might just mean that greater focus results in stronger magic, or that a better thought out incantation or circle will result in a stronger spell. Rather than being exclusive traits, one leads to the other. The more skilled you are, the more power you will have at your disposal.
     
  16. Euroclydon

    Euroclydon High Inquisitor

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    White Knight, Lash told him when he was in The Deeps about to get roflrapped by Cowl/Some bad guy.
     
  17. Ragon

    Ragon Dark Lord

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    This is similar to what I was thinking about. If he seriously stored supplies on the island in case of emergency and use it as a safe haven. On Demonreach Harry has a serious advantage against just about anyone, the skinwalker is an example. If they wanted him badly enough, the people Harry deals with are usually strong and arrogant enough to believe they can win no problem and would come after him. That would be a mistake on Demonreach.


    On using the power of the island to effect stuff off the island, that Im not too sure about because of the water. Water has a nullifying effect on magic in Dresdenverse. So not to sure about how well it would carry over the water.
     
  18. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    True, I hadn't thought of that. Very good point. It's still water though, not running, so that might matter? I can't recall if running water vs. still water matters in the Dresdenverse or not.
     
  19. Koalas

    Koalas First Year ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    A lake the size of Lake Michigan has currents/undertows/tides/etc. seemingly making it 'running' water as Harry, notes in Small Favor, he'd have a hard time throwing together a fire spell over so much water.
     
  20. Euroclydon

    Euroclydon High Inquisitor

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    But usualy, he's out saving someone, not fighting off foes from his home turf.
     
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