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Ursiel lied to Harry in Changes?

Discussion in 'Fanfic Discussion' started by saevanus, Jun 25, 2012.

  1. saevanus

    saevanus Third Year DLP Supporter

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    So this is probably a random prediction thread, but I was re-reading Death Masks and had a stray thought masquerading as an epiphany: Harry soulgazed Rasmussen/Ursiel.

    In Small Favor Thorned Namshiel took the Church's 11 coins and probably passed them on to Tessa or Rosana and they're linked to the Black Council, if I remember correctly.

    Lasciel isn't Lash, and thus doesn't know Harry. None of the other fallen know much about Harry short of reconnaissance and firsthand info, so I'm betting Ursiel is the one who knew best how to manipulate Harry. Thoughts?
     
  2. Khazad-Dumb

    Khazad-Dumb Loves the Gay Porn DLP Supporter

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    Citation needed.
     
  3. saevanus

    saevanus Third Year DLP Supporter

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    Death Masks, Chapter 6:

    In Small Favor, Harry brings the coins for trade. In Chapter 45, Nicodemus sees the strangulation marks on Harry's neck and says:

    It's far from concrete, but there's some evidence. Harry soulgazes Rasmussen, sees Rasmussen crucified in the cliff, and the cliff is a face. Harry's then thrown out and the coin is presumably put into storage until Small Favor, when it's taken with ten others to the island. Eleven coins disappear.
     
  4. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    There is still a connection between Lash and Lasciel; how else would Lash have been able to provide Harry with hellfire, or offer to teach him to take up the coin despite his protections in White Night? Besides, Harry digs up the coin after the events of White Night and gives it to Father Forthill, meaning that there are no protections between Lash/Lasciel that could potentially limit communication, other than Lash being all but dead at that point.

    That's two easy explanations for how Lasciel could know Harry better than the other Fallen. Hell, Soulgazes are good, but Lash knew Harry's thought processes better than anyone; she was intimately involved with them for years.
     
  5. Datakim

    Datakim Chief Warlock

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    It probably was not one of the denarians, but rather a fallen angel that was free. The 30 denarians are not the only fallen there are. According to WOJ, they are the elite that were imprisoned by Lucifer since he did not want any of them to backstab him. There are undoubtedly many more "lesser" fallen that are completely free. The denarians take advantage of the human hosts free will, and as such they don't give Uriel&co the opportunity to balance their actions, since in a way its the human host actually doing it, and angels apparently can't counter the actions of humans.

    Thats why Uriel was able to give Harry soulfire for example. If the denarians had acted all on their own using human hosts, he could have done nothing. But the denarians actually got direct assistance from a non-denarian fallen in the form of Lucifer. And that gave Uriel freedom to counter that act, since Lucifer has no human host.

    The fallen that lied to Harry was likely one such as that. And given how powerfull angels are, especially free ones, I doubt any previous knowledge was required to manipulate Harry. The fallen who lied to Harry could probably just covertly read his mind or somesuch. Or I suppose it could have been in communication with the denarians and learned the truth that way. That side probably wants to get rid of Harry bad, after he nearly killed Nicodemus and since they now know he has soulfire and is also "working" for Uriel. Nicodemus for example could likely have told the fallen enough to control Harry.

    EDIT: Oh, and when it comes to Lash, we don't actually know if there is a connection anymore. There was in White Night, and that connection undoubtedly could breach through Harrys wards, and allow summoning of the coin. But Harry refused, and Lash then sacrificed himself. And while Lash is still around, it is quite possible that the connection between Lash and Lasciel was broken when Lash changed and performed an act of self-sacrifice.

    I suppose there is a chance it could be Lasciel somehow remotely accessing Harrys mind (the only denarian candidate imho, since any other would have needed a human host in order to talk to Harry). However since Lasciel has no human host, mentally reaching to Harrys mind without a human host/free will could have been enough to qualify as breaking the rules and give Uriel the chance to intervene. I think it is more likely that it was just a normal free fallen however, and not a denarian at all.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2012
  6. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    Except that Jim has specifically said that Lasciel was in Changes.

    EDIT: Never mind, it was in Ghost Story.

    EDIT 2: Okay, Changes as well.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2012
  7. Agayek

    Agayek Dimensional Trunk DLP Supporter

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    Considering Butcher has gone on record stating the both Lash and Lasciel are in Changes Ghost Story, and there's no other possibility for Lasciel, I'm pretty sure you're wrong, as is the OP.

    As to how, they're angels (and thus nigh-omnipotent from a human perspective) and Lasciel cheated. It really doesn't need any further explanation.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2012
  8. Datakim

    Datakim Chief Warlock

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    Really? Can you give me a quote?
    Not that I doubt you, but I want to read it :)

    EDIT: Nevermind found it on butchers forums:

    2011 DC signing
    Have we seen the last of Lasciel?
    No, her story's not over. Actually, she's mentioned in Ghost Story, although not by name
    (Jim reiterated that both Lash and Lasciel appeared in Ghost Story under different names at the 2011 Boston signing-Serack)

    Lash is generally agreed to be the "parasite". So unless there is something really freaky going on, that prettymuch leaves the lying shadow as Lasciel. Thats confirmation that there is still a connection between them then. Cool :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2012
  9. saevanus

    saevanus Third Year DLP Supporter

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    Did not hear the part about Lash and Lasciel being in Ghost Story. My bad.

    A lot of my thinking was based on the idea that Lasciel was the predictable choice. Anduriel, being portrayed by a shadow, also seemed an easy candidate... Guess I need to read the forums there more often/carefully... My theory's only hope is that someone else was secretly Lasciel's host in GS :p
     
  10. Datakim

    Datakim Chief Warlock

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    I don't think that works. I DO know that Jim has said that Denarians can act freely because they tap into the free will of their host. This is why people like Nicodemus, who work together with their fallen are more effective than brutes such as Ursiel who don't. So it seems to me, that if Lasciel was in a host, she should have been free to lie to Harry as much as she wanted, and Uriel could not have done a thing about it. I mean if Uriel could act everytime a denarian acted, they would be no threat at all. Instead, they are a great threat only barely held in check by the knights, and Uriel only acted to give Harry soulfire because Lucifer (a NON-denarian) acted first.

    But if we assume that Lasciels coin is still locked up, but she still acted despite not having a human host, then it would explain why Uriel could counter her. Without a host, it was just Lasciel and so no free will bonus from a human. There is also the fact that if Lasciels coin had been stolen, Michael would surely have warned Harry about it, given that she likely wants vengeance.

    EDIT: Ursiel is imprisoned just like Lasciel is I think. So in theory, I could see Ursiel having communicated with Lasciel somehow and told her stuff, which she then used against Harry. I think thats unnecessarily complicated though. More likely that Lasciel just knew Harry all by herself. Harry did touch her coin. He may have buried it, but that touch alone was enough for Lasciel to implant an entirely new personality into Harrys brain. Odds are she "downloaded" enough info about Harry during that time to manipulate him when necessary.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2012
  11. saevanus

    saevanus Third Year DLP Supporter

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    Lasciel's coin was one of the 11, correct me if I'm wrong. The 11 were lost at the end of Small Favor, so Michael would just know the coin is out there. Also, I was under the impression that free will comes with a soul, and angels are nothing but soul, although they're bound by higher rules/Laws, hence Denarians.

    Harry had already miraculously 'beaten' the shadow, so I find it hard to imagine that he wouldn't take every precaution digging the coin up.

    Assuming Lasciel and Lash were present in GS, then Lasciel either acted (could act) beyond her purview or was not the liar. If not, then we have to guess where else Lasciel was and whether the liar was a Denarian or not... A lot of this hinges on whether the Denarian 'rules' are rules or literal laws of nature.
     
  12. Datakim

    Datakim Chief Warlock

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    I thought they recovered the 11 coins during that book (killed by Kincaid), and Lasciels was not one of them. I am not sure, ill have to check later, but I think so. I do recall that Lasciels coin was not mentioned as being one of them, and if it was there, I would have expected it would have been mentioned given its link to Harry.


    No, I mean when he originally touched the coin in book 5. There was a period of time when he had possession of the coin. During that time, Lasciel(the real one) had such access to Harrys brain, that she was able to implant an entirely separate personality in the form of a shadow (Lash). With that kind of access, I would think she also could have read enough of Harrys mind to get an idea what made him tick.

    Apparently Lasciel was present according to WOJ. Butchers forum has a list of questions he has answered, and one of them was the one I quoted above. He has also talked about Lash and the nature of Denarians in general and the role free will plays, so if you are intested go take a look. :)

    http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21772.msg947682.html#msg947682

    I suppose its possible that Butcher is being tricky, and Lasciel played some other more subtle role in the book and was not the fallen liar. Not sure what it could be.

    The two proxies that talk to Harry were Mab and Demonreach. The parasite was almost certainly Lash. That really only leaves the fallen shadow as unidentified. Unless Lasciel was some random human, it more or less has to be that.
     
  13. saevanus

    saevanus Third Year DLP Supporter

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    As of chapter 37 in Small Favor, Dresden offers 11 coins. Unless I'm mistaken, Dresden gave Lasciel's coin to Forthill by then.

    Completely acknowledged. Lasciel is a great candidate as she: a) may have taken a read of Dresden then, and b) may have received information from Lash via 'uplink'. Lasciel is a suspect, but Jim Butcher could plan a plot twist. Not great logic, but Lasciel is also very independent, and not necessarily much of a 'joiner'.


    I've read some of the nature of the Denarians but not as much as the books themselves. I'll check that out.

    We agree. I mention the possibility that Lasciel was present as something other than the liar to cover my arse. Of course, it's easy to say 'LUCIFER DONE IT!' :awesome... Of course, I like my authors to be tricksy and it may be tainting my logic.
     
  14. Datakim

    Datakim Chief Warlock

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    Dresden gave the coin to Forthill at the end of White Night, after he learned from Bob that Lash was gone(or so he thought). I think there was a timeskip of 1 year between that and Small Favor. Since WOJ says that the coins are not stored with Forthill, it is likely that by the time of Small Favor, Lasciels coin is already hidden by the church in some top secret facility somewhere. WOJ says that Harry cannot summon the coin, so I don't see how it could have been one of the 11. Also remember that lots of Denarians were killed during the attack where Ivy was captured. Kincaid shot a lot of them (10 presumably + the one Thomas killed earlier in the book), and the coins were then taken by the knights. I think those were the 11 coins Harry offered as bargain, the same ones that were captured in that book, and Lasciel was not among them.
     
  15. Random Shinobi

    Random Shinobi Unspeakable DLP Supporter

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    Aren't Soulfire and Hellfire both derived from soul? Angels are creatures composed entirely of soul and since the fall was unlikely to grant them any additional power source, it must be concluded that Hellfire too uses soul as fuel. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if all angels could use both Hellfire and Soulfire.

    Anyway, my point was that she has access to Harry's soul and thus can use it to produce Hellfire.
     
  16. Datakim

    Datakim Chief Warlock

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    Yeah, maybe. I actually remember that Butcher once had a digital QA where he mentioned that if a single person had both the positions of Summer and Winter knight, they would react like matter and anti-matter and the person would blow up. I asked him if the same is true for Soulfire/Hellfire, and he said that while those two are not additive, they are basically two sides of the same coin, and which *fire one uses depends on the angel/person. In other words, fallen have hellfire and non-fallen soulfire, and soulfire turns into hellfire when an angel falls.

    So while the ability to use Soulfire would probably mean that Harry could use Hellfire even without Lash now, I am unsure if he could do it at the same time as he has Soulfire. He would probably have to become "fallen" himself to do it. And since Lash has apparently been redeemed, the same likely applies to her now. So I doubt Lash can use hellfire anymore. Not unless Lash is still linked to Lasciel and can draw it from her anyway.
     
  17. saevanus

    saevanus Third Year DLP Supporter

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    It was my theory that if Lasciel wasn't somehow tapping into her own power to give to Harry, then it was just a less costly use of one's soul. Harry doesn't mention the same effects using Hellfire as Soulfire (i.e. losing control of a hand). So it's one of the following: it didn't come from him, it's less costly, or it's costly in a subtler way... Seemed about right that the destruction (metaphorically, since Hellfire isn't always offensive/immediately destructive) is easier than creating with 'rebar' soulfire... Of course it could be a patron-proprietary thing: you can only tap into it with an angel's backing.


    Chapter 34

    @datakim You're right: 14 are still in church possession, presumably including Lasciel's.
     
  18. Random Shinobi

    Random Shinobi Unspeakable DLP Supporter

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    Or Dresden had no fucking idea of what he was doing. It's perfectly possible that he put far more Soulfire in that spell than necessary. Also, he took it all from a single point of his soul instead of taking a bit from everywhere.

    But who knows? It may be that Butcher hasn't decided yet and is keeping his options open.
     
  19. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    I'm not seeing it. Harry used hellfire dozens of times when he still had it, even to the point of exhaustion, but he never ran into the problem of using up his own soul. The use of soulfire did something that had never been mentioned before; it made his body go numb in the places he drew from (naturally it took longer when he drew from all over his body than in his first use). Before that all Harry ever complained about was the exhaustion that always accompanied large amounts of magic use.

    So yeah, while it's possible that hellfire uses a soul to power it, I find it unlikely that it was Harry's soul fuelling the hellfire.
     
  20. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony ~ Prestige ~

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    As far as an associated cost for Hellfire, it seems more likely that it's got some kind of corrupting influence on mortals who use it. Whenever Harry pulled out Hellfire he tended to get angrier/more violent. Most notably in Proven Guilty when he starts smacking one of the Fetches around during Splattercon!!! and lets the woman it attacked bleed out because the Hellfire has him caring more about killing the Fetch than saving it's victim.
     
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