1. DLP Flash Christmas Competition + Writing Marathon 2024!

    Competition topic: Magical New Year!

    Marathon goal? Crank out words!

    Check the marathon thread or competition thread for details.

    Dismiss Notice
  2. Hi there, Guest

    Only registered users can really experience what DLP has to offer. Many forums are only accessible if you have an account. Why don't you register?
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Introducing for your Perusing Pleasure

    New Thread Thursday
    +
    Shit Post Sunday

    READ ME
    Dismiss Notice

Why Do People Say Harry Potter Never Killed?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by AmerigoCorleone, Sep 9, 2016.

  1. AmerigoCorleone

    AmerigoCorleone Seventh Year

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2015
    Messages:
    286
    He clearly killed 3 Death Eaters during the Battle of the Seven Potters.

    He only used Expelliarmus on Stan Stunpike because of the latter had been hit with a Stunning Spell then he would have died.

    But Harry did not use Expelliarmus on the other Death Eaters.


    Most people use his argument with Remus to show his unwillingness to kill, but if you reread it, it actually shows the opposite.

     
  2. Seratin

    Seratin Proudmander –§ Prestigious §– DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2007
    Messages:
    293
    Location:
    Dún na ngall
    High Score:
    5,792
    I've never met anyone who says that Harry hasn't killed. He did burn Quirell's face off after all.

    Perhaps a better way to look at it is that he is against the thought of killing and actively tries to avoid it if he can help it.

    Besides, those death eaters could have known Arresto Momentum. >_>
     
  3. AmerigoCorleone

    AmerigoCorleone Seventh Year

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2015
    Messages:
    286
    Perhaps, though that one Death Eater, who was stunned, would not have been able to cast a single spell, though.

    The one hit by Impedimenta probably dropped his broom and wand.

    And the one hit by the explosion may not have been in a right state to cast any spell
     
  4. Ludwig

    Ludwig Fourth Year

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2016
    Messages:
    126
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canada
    High Score:
    0
    I think most people just believe him (Harry) to be very benevolent. Not someone who would outright go for a kill, but someone who would use any means necessary to protect himself and his friends.

    Sometimes they interpret it as him being unwilling to kill, without considering the second part.
     
  5. Seratin

    Seratin Proudmander –§ Prestigious §– DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2007
    Messages:
    293
    Location:
    Dún na ngall
    High Score:
    5,792
    Then refer to the first part of my post. Remember, this is the same kid that cast the cruciatus. He's not one hundred percent pure angel dust.
     
  6. AmerigoCorleone

    AmerigoCorleone Seventh Year

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2015
    Messages:
    286
    Exactly. From a 2007 interview.


     
  7. Seratin

    Seratin Proudmander –§ Prestigious §– DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2007
    Messages:
    293
    Location:
    Dún na ngall
    High Score:
    5,792
    There you have it, the answer to your question. Some people have a shallow and flawed understanding of Harry's character which is directly contradicted by canon and WoG.

    As to why they have that impression? Shitty fanon.
     
  8. Rehio

    Rehio Bad Dragon ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2007
    Messages:
    367
    Location:
    New Mexico
    High Score:
    2588
    Very rarely have I come across anyone who says that Harry hasn't killed or is pure. Not sure where you're finding so many folks that it seems to be a "thing."
     
  9. AmerigoCorleone

    AmerigoCorleone Seventh Year

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2015
    Messages:
    286
    Well, most say that he never killed by choice. We know that's incorrect, yet it seems to be a widely accepted opinion.
     
  10. Seratin

    Seratin Proudmander –§ Prestigious §– DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2007
    Messages:
    293
    Location:
    Dún na ngall
    High Score:
    5,792
    Again, I'm not sure where the whole "widely accepted opinion" thing is coming from.
     
  11. Ludwig

    Ludwig Fourth Year

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2016
    Messages:
    126
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canada
    High Score:
    0
    Most likely he read several FFs that had authors defending that point of view and might have assumed that it is what most people think.

    I know I have made that mistake before with Magical Cores. After reading so many stories that had in-depth explanations of Magical Cores and had it be a big plot point, I started to think they were actually a thing.
     
  12. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    8,379
    Location:
    The South
    I dunno - I also feel that "Harry hasn't killed" is a fairly common thing. And I've been hanging out here for the better part of a decade.

    But to address the above:

    (1) Saying that Harry hasn't killed is not the same thing as saying that he is pure or fundamentally good in some way that most people aren't. In my mind these two concepts are not affiliated so wherever I've been getting the idea that "Harry hasn't killed" is common did NOT include that concept as well.

    (2) Quirrell. Did Harry kill him? Honestly I could argue that he didn't. Voldemort's presence killed him when he was in contact with Harry. One could argue that Harry "hung on" to Quirrell and therefore killed him, but do we know that for sure? Or did Voldemort bail at the last second and that is what killed Quirrell?

    Could also support this by pointing to Harry not seeing thestrals the first time around. That's argued against by saying that just because Harry killed someone doesn't mean he knew he did, or understood what it meant, or had his eyes closed, or just that JKR hadn't come up with the concept yet.

    But I've generally considered it an unknown in canon. Did Harry him? Or not? Certainly he died as a result of his encounter with Harry, but I'm 50/50 on whether or not "Harry killed him" is a completely accurate statement.

    (3) The DEs in Deathly Hallows. Harry attacked them and knocked them around, possibly sending them spiraling to their deaths. But we don't know that. It's speculation whether or not they actually died or had some magical means of being saved (yes, even the petrified one /might/ have lived somehow).

    (4) Points regarding how Harry used crucio, etc. I don't consider that relevant to whether or not he has killed someone, since I am not arguing anything about Harry's pureness/goodness/whatever that somehow got added to this conversation.

    He's a flawed character. He has a temper and he's a moody angsty little asshat of a teenager sometimes. I don't know if he was actively trying to kill the DEs in DH or just make them go away... but I think if he had thought about it, he'd still have attacked them. Because he had to.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2016
  13. Skeletaure

    Skeletaure Magical Core Enthusiast ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2006
    Messages:
    2,819
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    High Score:
    13,152
    I think Harry did kill Quirrell. Yes, Quirrell would have eventually died anyway from Voldemort's possession. But without Harry's actions, he would have not died at that time in that place. We're all eventually going to die, so a person's inevitable death doesn't make ending their life not killing. Bringing a person's inevitable death forward in time is all killing is, really.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2016
  14. Shinysavage

    Shinysavage Madman With A Box ~ Prestige ~

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2009
    Messages:
    2,059
    Location:
    UK
    High Score:
    2,296
    While I think it's debatable whether he knew he was killing Quirrell or not, Harry definitely killed the basilisk, and diary!Riddle. He also accepted that he'd probably have to kill Voldemort in the end, and while he may not have cast a lethal curse at him he knew that the duel was heavily rigged in his favour.
     
  15. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    8,379
    Location:
    The South
    I agree, but I think it could be argued that Voldemort killed Quirrell instead of Harry. I.e. He might have died anyway because of Harry, but it was Voldemort leaving at the last second that actually killed him. Etc.

    I guess the point I was trying to make is that I feel it's a little bit ambiguous in canon, just enough that people could interpret it either way. And since it was never brought up front and center later in the books that "Harry killed a person" a lot of fans choose to assume he didn't since it wasn't perfectly clear.

    The basilisk isn't a person, so I don't count that as killing in the spirit of the original question the OP posed.

    Diary!Riddle though is an interesting point. He killed a part of Riddle's soul, but Riddle himself was still alive after that point, so did he really kill anyone?

    And again, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here. There are no clear cut 100% "Harry killed a human being or other 'person'" moments in canon that I can think of. There are a lot of places where he probably did, where it only makes sense that he did, or that he killed something that appeared to be a thinking person whether or not it was.

    But the slight ambiguity leads to some people (what feels to me personally like a large percentage) feeling that Harry never killed anyone.

    *shrug* I dunno. But I get where the idea is coming from, even if it's a bit too "clean" for the sort of war implied to be going on.
     
  16. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony ~ Prestige ~

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2008
    Messages:
    2,011
    High Score:
    1,802
    I imagine a lot of it depends on how much one is willing to play with the technical pacifist tropes—I don't think Harry ever cast a spell with the specific intent of killing his target. Some writers/readers seem to think that killing in battle requires that sort of conscious choice.

    The classic hero with a code against killing who nonetheless goes into battle all the time pretty much requires handwaving a lot of real-world biology and medicine to actually work.
     
  17. AmerigoCorleone

    AmerigoCorleone Seventh Year

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2015
    Messages:
    286
    Harry made it very clear to Remus that if he used a stunning spell in Stunpike, the latter would have died.

    So Harry knew full well what would happen to all of the Death Eaters he incapacitated.
     
  18. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    8,379
    Location:
    The South
    Sorry but Harry thinking that stunning Stan would kill him doesn't mean that it would have.

    This goes to intent, not confirmation of actual kills or not. Whether or not Harry thinks his attacks on the other flying DEs killed them or not still does nothing to confirm whether or not they actually were killed.

    I'm fully on board with Harry being willing to kill. To me the OP seemed more about whether or not Harry has actually killed anyone and whether or not that is open to interpretation. My point is that while you can certainly argue that he did so, you can also argue that there is no proof he did. Therefore canon is free to interpret as the reader chooses on that particular point.

    Arguing that Harry was willing/able to kill is much easier and is borne out by canon events.
     
  19. AmerigoCorleone

    AmerigoCorleone Seventh Year

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2015
    Messages:
    286
    True enough.

    But yes, Harry Potter is certainly willing to kill. It becomes tiring reading fanfiction, even the ones where Harry becomes darker, say that he isn't.

    I would love to read a story where the author acknowledged that Harry Potter is someone who has always been willing to kill.
     
  20. Chengar Qordath

    Chengar Qordath The Final Pony ~ Prestige ~

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2008
    Messages:
    2,011
    High Score:
    1,802
    Indeed so. Harry's used spells that almost certainly would kill given the circumstances, but we never see explicit confirmation that he has killed, and he certainly doesn't show much in the way of a killer mentality. We never hear him say "I'm willing to kill Death Eaters" or see him cast the killing curse or similar spells.

    Granted, I much prefer a Harry who uses lethal force in appropriate circumstances. Though that's at least partially because I'm not a fan of all the easy nonlethal KO tropes in fiction, since most of them aren't the slightest bit realistic and their prevalence is such that far too many don't realize that reality doesn't work that way.
     
Loading...