So a thought occurred to me. With all the power-ups that Naruto's gone through, do you think that his strength is greater than Tsunade's yet?

What comes to mind is the comparison between two specific fight scenes. In the Tsunade Retrieval Arc, during the Sannin grudge-match, Tsunade tosses Gamabunta's skyscraper-sized sword and then slams it down through Manda's mouth. Then, in the Naruto vs. Pain fight, one of the Paths summons a giant rhinoceros which charges him. He stops it dead then tosses it high into the air like its nothing. That right there indicates a similar level of physical strength. Add onto the fact all the Kyuubi Chakra Modes that he's gotten, he could probably bat her around like a ragdoll.



Actually I'm curious now. Maybe this has been covered in some other thread or not, but if anyone were to use the new power-ups in a fanfic, what would be their in-universe justification of how it works, and it's strengths and weaknesses?

 

If he's not in SM or KCM then he'd be weaker than Tsunade. SM probably puts him on the same level and I think KCM might actually be stronger. So if he's in his normal state then he'd be smacked around, if he's in SM they're about even and if he's in KCM he'd be smacking her around since he's got strength+speed. That's how I see it, though I haven't really made comparisons before now.

Assuming you're only talking about KCM and SM, if I was using them in a fanfic I don't think I'd feel much need to change how they work. More likely, I'd have a Naruto who can only use one or the other rather than have access to both. Though I'd more willing to introduce SM into the story at an earlier point than I would with KCM.

 

He's over 9000, probably...

 

Naruto basically seems to be all about different modes.

In "base", he is probably somewhere on the level of an average jounin or so. Good, but nothing spectacular.

Then there is the Sage Mode, where he gets a huge boost in all areas. I think in SM, his physical strength probably matches or even exceeds Tsunades. During the pain invasion, he picked up a massive rhino summon of Nagatos and basically flung it into the air with no effort at all. In this mode he also gets other very powerfull abilities such a sensory abilities, near sharingan-like predictive abilities and ofcouse the ability to strike people with his Natural Energy aura (which even rinnegan cannot see).

Then there is KCM(Kyuubi Chakra Mode). This is the mode Naruto got when he fought Kyuubi in his mind. He managed to rip a portion of Kyuubis power from him, and make it his own. This is the first mode where Naruto glows like a lightbulb. In this mode he is extremely fast, and can sense negative emotions such as malice/evil. He can also form chakra hands to deliver rasengans at long range and generally do stuff like that. It should be noted however that Naruto did NOT manage to take all of Kyuubis chakra, so while powerfull, KCM does not have full access to all of Kyuubis power.

And finally we have the BM(Bijuu Mode). This is what happened when Naruto befriended Kyuubi (or should I say Kurama), and opened the gate. At this point Naruto gained full access to the entirety of Kuramas power. At BM, Naruto is basically one of the most powerfull people in the manga now. Other than people like edo!Madara and Obito(because he can escape to the other dimension), there are none who could realistically face BM!Naruto.

There is also a lot of speculation that we will get more modes.

These are the two most common guesses.

We know that Obito was able to recreate the Juubi by just throwing in a tiny fraction of Kyuubis and Hachibis power. Obito then even solidly confirmed that only a tiny piece is required to resurrect Juubi.

And it just so happens that when Naruto was fighting the bijuu, he met them all in that mindscape world, and each bijuu there gave him a portion of their chakra. Kurama also absorbed a single tentacles worth of chakra from Hachibi during the battle between Kurama and Naruto in the island. That means that in theory, if Naruto could somehow get his hands on a small portion of chakra from Ichibi/Shukaku, then he could potentially create a Juubi all his own (most likely Kurama, except with 10 tails). Ofcourse Shukaku is now a part of Juubi and out of reach, but it just so happens that Naruto has very close friend in Gaara, who was once a jinchuuriki of Shukaku, and who might still have same trace remnants of Shukakus chakra in his body that he can donate to Naruto so Naruto can go Juubi aswell.

The other guess is that Naruto will somehow combine his modes, and enter Sage Mode while in Bijuu Mode (BSM?). This idea has gained a lot more support in the latest chapters. We learned that the original creature Juubi, from which the bijuu are all created from is somehow formed of Natural Energy. That might imply that Kyuubi&Hachibi also have some affinity with NE, since they come from Juubi. And whats more, when Kurama ran out of chakra in the recent chapter, he states that he needs a bit of time to recover his chakra, and then he assumes a meditative pose that EXACTLY mirrors the position Naruto takes, when Naruto is trying to reach SM. That might be foreshadowing from Kishi.

I would wager we get one of those two.

Either Gaara will arrive to the battlefield after being healed by Tsunade, and Kurama then tells Naruto to try and absorb whatever residue of Shukaku is left in Gaara so they can go Juubi.

or

Naruto will realise that if the Juubi is a creture of NE, then that might apply to Kyuubi too, and together they will enter into a bijuu-sage-mode. One thing about SM is that it apparently balances with the chakra you already have. So the more chakra you have, the more Natural Energy you can draw (and the more powerfull you become). Since Kurama has a humongous amounts of chakra, Kurama in SM would be extremely powerfull.

 

Also, Kyuubi's currently running on half of his total Chakra too. Just something to note.

The Yondaime took out half of Kyuubi's chakra during the sealing, so it's possible that Naruto or someone else will do something to unseal and utilize that portion.

 

Yeah. Or to be specific, Yondaime took the "yin"-chakra from Kyuubi.

Narutoworld apparently works with the whole Yin and yang principle, and chakra is ordinarily composed of both.

When Yondaime ripped half of Kyuubis chakra away, he specifically targeted the yin-aspect, while leaving the yang untouched. The reason for why Yondaime wanted to create a yang-only Kyuubi has not been revealed yet.

As a side note, we do know that bijuu can regenerate the chakra they lose, and I have read theories on other forums about the possibility that Kyuubi would have regenerated the chakra he lost, but lacking a "seed" of yin-chakra, he has basically regenerated all his chakra with pure Yang.

That is to say, the Kyuubi that attacked Konoha had say 50 points of yin-chakra, and 50 points of yang-chakra, for a total 100 combined (and balanced) chakra. Yondaime removed the 50 points of yin, leaving Kyuubi with only 50 points of yang and 50 points total. However its possible that Kyuubi has since restored the lost chakra, but in an unbalanced way, so that he now has 0 points of yin-chakra, 100 points of yang-chakra and 100 points of total (unbalanced to Yang) chakra.

I have absolutely no idea why or how this is supposed to work or whats the point.

Btw, I wonder if this discussion might be better in the multimedia>books and anime>naruto manga section rather than the fanfiction discussion section. Unless someone is planning on writing something based on this discussion ofcourse.

 

Give him some credit, I'd say that post-wind training Naruto was on par with an above-average jounin. Perhaps not quite as versatile as those who actually have the rank (I'm mostly thinking of Kakashi here) but with enough cunning and power to fight on that level. I'd hesitate to say he was an S-rank at that stage but I think he was on the cusp.

 

Yang is typically the more physical aspect. If Kyuubi has only Yang and is used in resurrection, then possibly only the Jyuubi's body, but not mind, will be fully restored.

Yin is also typically the more passive and tenacious side. It's the one that probably would have manipulated the hell out of Naruto instead of just raging at him.

It would also explain why almost all of his Bijuu based effects are focused on physical augmentations. Kyuubi's missing the mental/spiritual augment aspects from Yin.

 

Since Tsunade's a close range fighter and isn't all that fast I wouldn't be surprised if she lost to base Naruto. He'd have trouble and would probably wreck his arm but he might pull it off. In any of his other forms I think he'd wreck her. I think one of his rasengan's disintegrated some of a path's body.

 

Actually, they're a fairly even match in base terms. Both of them have super strength to one degree or another, are pretty damn fast and have a regeneration ability. Given those things it would be pretty even right up until Naruto hit Four-Tailed mode and above. Of course he'd beat her to death after that, but then he defeated Pain before he ever got close to mastering Kurama's power.

 

And now I want to see them fight. Perhaps under the pretext of proving him a worthy successor.

T'would be a fun read.

 

If I remember right, Tsunade doesn't actually have super strength. She's just able to augment impacts to do ridiculous damage.

So, she could punch Gamabunta and make him land over a mile away, but she can't pick him up and throw him that far.

Naruto has genuine augmented strength in his forms.

 

No, I believe Tsunade actually has super strength. Sakura's the one who's limited to impact damage with a jutsu called Cherry Blossom Collision which she's the only user of. Tsunade does something different or something greater but I don't think we ever get a clear explanation of exactly what she's doing.

 

Yeah, Fuuton: Rasenshuriken would destroy Tsunade. The trouble is that it would also destroy Naruto. It was stated that FRS rips apart the "chakra network" of the target, destroying the ability to use chakra (and presumably kill the target if its vital areas that are destroyed such as around the heart). Tsunade also stated that such damage was even beyond her ability to heal, so presumably even her super-regeneration techniques would be useless against FRS.

But in base, Naruto himself suffers the exact same chakra network damage, which means that he would be just as screwed as Tsunade would be. Thats why Tsunade told Kakashi to forbid Naruto from ever using FRS again, because he would (at best) lose the ability to use chakra. At worst he might have died.

He fixed that problem with both SM and KCM/BM where the super-durability+ability to throw the FRS solves the problem, but those are not available in base.

I am unsure if Tsunades super strength has ever been explained. I presume she just uses chakra to enhance her muscles, and she is so incredibly good at it that she can basically maintain it 24/7 without problems. But its still chakra-based strength rather than actual muscle strength. The end result is the same ofcourse.

I personally don't believe he could take out Tsunade in base (atleast without using FRS, which would hurt him just as much). Narutos real boosts after the timeskip have been in modes such as SM,KCM and BM. Sure, he has improved in base too, but in my view not enough to defeat any of the sannin.

 

It would make more sense if he used Odama Rasengan rather than FRS if he's in base state. It doesn't quite have the same 200% death rate as FRS but it's more lethal than a regular Rasengan and has none of the blacklash. TBH, I think his fight with Kakuzu would have been at lot shorter if he'd used that instead of trying to use the FRS.

And I'd say it's less a case of Naruto being able to take on a Sannin and more him being able to take on Tsunade specifically. Thanks to their respective skill sets, I think she's one of the few S-rank he could potentially beat without powering up in some way. Though I recall she recently showed even better regen than before which tips the scales more heavily in her favour.

 

What he said. Tsunade's skill set isn't one you'd want to use against Naruto. She's not really all that much faster than him even if she is far more skilled in hand to hand. Since she doesn't have the speed advantage and he can spam clones with dangerous attacks she'd be in a bad position.

As for the danger of the FRS you're pretty much overstating it, Datakim. Only Naruto's arm got the backlash of using it so he'd definitely live if he hit Tsunade with it(assuming he didn't plow her straight into the ground with it and get caught in the blast). The long lasting effects of using it aren't really worth noting in this scenario. From his diversion technique against Kakuzu it also seems like his clones can use it which may circumvent that problem altogether.

On Tsunade's strength I'm pretty sure it's a mix of things. I'd guess it's a combination of great genetics and being a taijutsu specialist that led to her actual strength. On top of that she clearly knows the impact based jutsu that Sakura uses(or something similar). When she fought Naruto she cracked the street in half with a finger.

 

While we're on the topic of the Rasen-Shuriken, why doesn't it disintegrate its targets? With miniature chakra blades ripping through your body in such quantities that it perforates each and every cell in your body, wouldn't that destroy all your connective tissue and bones? At best you'd be a pile of jelly-like meat, at worst you'd be dust in the wind. Hell, the FRS even gouged out a deep crater beneath Kakuzu, and that was at the edges of the jutsu instead of at its core. That alone would indicate its potential to do so. Kishimoto didn't even seem to have all that much problem with mutilating his characters before. Granted I haven't quite seen the level that, say, Zabuza was subjected to during the Wave Arc against the mercs for a long time but still.

 

If you look at the first time Naruto uses Oodama rasengan, it is clear he is using Kyuubis chakra to power it.
http://www.mangapanda.com/93-265-11/naruto/chapter-260.html
I am unsure if he even can do it in base? Is there a scenario where we see Naruto perform that rasengan without support from Kyuubi or SM?

Well, in the anime it does exactly that. Anime is not canon ofcourse so I looked for the manga version here:
http://www.mangapanda.com/93-437-7/naruto/chapter-432.html
Its a bit unclear but it does seem to match the anime in that that path of Nagatos is basically being disintegrated.

It might be that if Naruto uses FRS in base, its not strong enough to disintegrate the target, but still causes unsurvivable internal injuries. However when boosted by SM, it becomes strong enough to disintegrate its targets. I do recall that Fukasaku claimed that SM generally strengthened all techniques, so this would make sense.

 

Given how much chakra Naruto has at his disposal and how easily he can spam Rasengan and KB together, I'd be shocked if he needed to pull on the Kyuubi's chakra for it. I think it's more likely he drew on it because of the situation i.e. raging at Itachi and/or not taking any chances. But we never see that version used ever again so there's no way to be completely certain.