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Sherlock

Discussion in 'Movies, Music and TV shows' started by Sorrows, Jul 26, 2010.

  1. DarkAizen

    DarkAizen Professor DLP Supporter

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    The one problem I had with episode was the reprogramming thing. It would have been so much better if the prison fell because Moriarty had taken the wardens wife hostage or something.

    All in all I liked it. The end montage was pretty sweet. Is this the last season? Or are we getting more?

    Please sir, can I have some more?
     
  2. Gengar

    Gengar Degenerate Shrimp –§ Prestigious §– DLP Supporter

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    Yeah, I dunno, there were some awesome scenes in this episode, and it ended in a very fulfilling way, but I just couldn't get over the pseudo mind control aspect. There were other things that got on my nerves - too much to say I actually liked it - but that one is what got me the most.
     
  3. Shinysavage

    Shinysavage Madman With A Box ~ Prestige ~

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    The more I think on Eurus' persuasion bordering on mind control, the more I can accept it, tbh. It's been a recurring theme of the show from day one - the cabbie from episode one: "I don't want to kill you, Mr Holmes. I'm going to talk to you, and then you're going to kill yourself." Series 2, The Reichenbach Fall - Moriaty talks to Sherlock for a few minutes, and he's forced into a situation where he has to fake his own death. Magnussen's whole thing is talking to people about their pressure points, and thereby making them do his bidding. The show is full of incredibly intelligent people manipulating people largely through talking, so while it's perhaps not quite a logical conclusion to that, it's not a massively improbable one in-universe.

    Also, with regard to the prospect of a fifth series, it may be worth considering that The Final Problem had the lowest broadcast ratings of the entire show, although it clawed back a healthy figure through iplayer and the like. How much weight the BBC will put on that when it comes to recommission is debatable, given that some of that dip will be attributed to the episode being leaked online in Russia prior to broadcast.
     
  4. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    So... things with spoiler tags! Speaking of spoiler tags, while most of you put the major spoilers into tags earlier in the thread for this episode, quite a few of you left out enough information to... not spoil, but still gave me an idea on the direction things were heading in.

    Screw those of you who did that. Not enough to really bitch at anyone, but enough to bitch in general. :awesome

    This going to be too long. I'm treating it almost like a fanfic apparently, since I have DLP open and am making comments while I watch it to edit after it's done.

    One thing I quite liked early on was how the show managed to stay true to characters like Mycroft by... putting them in situations where panic is expected, and showing viewers that yes they're scared as fuck, but not having them panic. Not letting them lose control, whether it's freaky clowns or a grenade, but still feeling a bit vulnerable and off kilter.

    In a lot of ways this was Mycroft's episode. Showed us that while he is superior to Sherlock in some ways without many of Sherlock's drawbacks (drugs, etc), he can still fuck up. He also shined once or twice too, like when he tried to get Sherlock to kill him. All three of the Holmes kids have their own flaws to offset their varying levels of high intelligence, and I like that.

    And speaking of the grenade, I half expected it to be a dud. Kudos to the show for not taking that route. Nice 'adventure' type feel to this one between that and when they played pirate.

    Cracked up (creepily?) at this conversation. It's so out there and the last line was delivered in a tone of voice that I could almost hear Sherlock using instead of his sister.
    Euros: I've had sex.
    Sherlock: How?
    Euros: One of the nurses got careless.
    Sherlock: He didn't consent?
    Euros: He?
    Sherlock: She?
    Euros: I'm afraid I didn't notice in the heat of the moment. Afterwards you couldn't really tell.

    The glass. And lack thereof. :awesome

    The 'mind control' AKA 'reprogramming' thing did bug me. YES it's true that the general concept been somewhat of a recurring theme in the series. But in past episodes we could at least understand how/why it was working, whether it was Moriarty's maneuvering or Magnussen's pressure points or whatever else. The suspension of disbelief I maintained there broke here. I can try to semi-justify it after the fact by twisting my head around, sort of like justifying how (poorly) the stone was protected in PS/SS, but I have to force it. On the other hand showing that Sherlock's formidable mind was working to keep him from remembering past trauma was a solid turn around. The best person to hide something from Sherlock is... Sherlock.

    The bit with the little girl felt too much like a deliberate trick for the audience. Seeing her physically on screen in an airplane, without any indications of serious drug use by Sherlock, is telling the viewers that somewhere there exists a little girl on a plane. Even if she only exists in memory. But at the same time I knew something screwy was going on with it because of... well, how it was set up. The girl never panicked, was always on the line when needed and ready to pick up where the conversation left off, lots of time passing, etc. In hindsight it seems tacked on because the writers realized they had to have some kind of external threat to hurry Sherlock/John/Mycroft along so they didn't dally overmuch.

    The 'House of Horrors' concept was fun and mind screwy. I liked it, and I liked that it didn't pull many punches in terms of Eurus going through with her threats. That said... no one we cared about died or had to deal with lasting consequences. I'm sort of glad they didn't, since I don't feel we have extraneous characters, but I still wanted to note it.

    Also... Sherlock remembered Lestrade's first name!
    I've seen some complaints online that everything in this series is about Sherlock.

    Well, yeah. The name of the series is Sherlock. I don't doubt that interesting episodes and subplots could be given to other characters. They seem three dimensional in the show and it's easy to envision the sorts of things they have going on outside of the episodes we see. I don't mind that the show focuses on events surrounding the title character.

    This episode was a great example of using psychology to generate compelling mind fuckery. It had it's issues - and one or two problems with suspension of disbelief - but on the whole I found it to be great fun. Lots of twisty bits.

    I hope they don't end the series here, but if they do... well, it works as an ending.
     
  5. Gengar

    Gengar Degenerate Shrimp –§ Prestigious §– DLP Supporter

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    Yeah, lol, my general rule of thumb is to stay away from DLP entirely if I'm about to watch something I'm sensitive about being spoiled.

    Doubly do because Tapatalk shows what's in spoiler tags anyway in the thread preview...
     
  6. KHAAAAAAAN!!

    KHAAAAAAAN!! Troll in the Dungeon –§ Prestigious §– DLP Supporter

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    I'd be perfectly okay with that being the last Sherlock. In fact, I think I'd prefer it. The dynamic between Watson and Holmes has arrived at a nice place, and there doesn't really seem like there would be any new/interesting direction to take it in.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2017
  7. Agent

    Agent High Inquisitor DLP Supporter

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    Not to mention that Cumberbatch and Freeman are trying (And succeeding) to break into Hollywood. There's also the rumours about a less than stellar relationship between Freeman and Cumberbatch.

    Also, Mark Gatiss doesn't plan on ending it now but he has said that they could end it now. Make of that what you will.
     
  8. Aekiel

    Aekiel Angle of Mispeling ~ Prestige ~ DLP Supporter

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    From what I've heard it's just that they're not mates, not that there's any particular antipathy between them. They're professionals with their own lives off the job and they're not inclined to spend much time with each other off set.
     
  9. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    Is it even possible to place any value into rumours of that nature? I'd always assumed that celebrity gossip was the least accurate form of reporting, which is really saying something.

    The more I think about the previous episode the more I feel like Mycroft didn't get to show off his intelligence much despite it being more 'his' episode than any prior.
    For example, I'm not surprised that Sherlock jumped straight into the "girl on a plane" problem. It's like Sherlock to go in feet first and then figure out later that there was more to it.

    But Mycroft could have expressed more difficulty at believing it was actually happening. A few other similar things.
     
  10. Agent

    Agent High Inquisitor DLP Supporter

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    In regards to the whole plane thing...What exactly did the trio think was happening? If the plane was falling, it would have crashed in less than an hour, wouldn't it?

    That's the main thing which made me think it was faked.
     
  11. Jjf88

    Jjf88 Auror

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    My ranking is based off of the whole Holmes canon, so not strictly applicable to just Sherlock.

    1. Eurus
    2. Mycroft
    3.Moriarty/Holmes.

    Mycroft is said to be 'the government'. And he's scared of Eurus. This was my issue with the Holmes sister. Mycroft is lazy as fuck. So he's got the skills but cba doing any work and he's not used to action as we see in the finale. So that is how Sherlock is better than him than just intellectually.

    But Eurus outplays Sherlock on every level, even physically at one point (though you can attribute this to shock I guess), and his trump card is that she's...missing him? Emotionally unstable? I don't even know at this point..
     
  12. Zerg_Lurker

    Zerg_Lurker Headmaster DLP Supporter

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    Just binged it into the morning, what a trip.

    The Final Problem was creepy as fuck throughout.

    Eurus came off like GLaDOS and that was fun. However, I agree with what others have said in that she's just not as good of an antagonist as Moriarty or Magnusson. Unfortunately, the writers had only so many avenues to work around having wasted the best villain and not-reintroducing him.

    Having a superpower-level intellect that confers mind control via amoral psychology is a bit too fantastical for me. Moriarty and Magnusson's supercriminality was grounded in the plausible explanation of placing the right people in the right places or contexts.

    The resolution was a little too clean cut and cheesy, and I absolutely abhorred Mary's narration at the end, but that's really just the nature of the whole "dead drop" message. On another note, calling her dear husband "Dr. Watson," tacked on to Sherlock Holmes, fit the narration but not the character, not to mention completely forgetting her daughter.

    I rather liked her character and the storylines she brought about, but I'm okay with killing her off to refocus from a sprawling cast back down to Sherlock and Watson.

    John's texting-cheating was some weak shit. Whatever.

    Episode 2 was probably my favourite. It's nicely self-contained if you lop off the first and last 3 minutes or so, and the mystery is like a cleaner, more condensed Magnusson story arc. Plus we get to see a greater range in characters like Mrs. Hudson.

    Overall I enjoyed it.
    Quality may have gone down a bit as the years passed but I got my fix like any other junkie.
    Still one of the few things that will actually hold my attention for an extended period of time, but less and less.
     
  13. Mutton

    Mutton Order Member

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    Just finished it. I thought season 3 was terrible and season 2 just mediocre in comparison to the excellent season 1, but boy oh boy were my expectations blown away by season 4.

    In the exact opposite direction. That was quite possibly some of the worst butchering of a tv series I've ever seen. I mean good god, I had thought some of the terrible reveals about backstories before were the result of allowing My Immortal level fanfic writers into the script room, but this season just took it one step further.
     
  14. Sesc

    Sesc Slytherin at Heart Moderator

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    Bump, because I caught the last episode as it premiere'd here.

    So ... and I say this as someone who made sense of Matrix Revolutions ... wtf was going on in the last episode? It leaves me scratching my head.

    No, I'm not inclined to accept Sherlock has an evil genius sister we (Sherlock) knew nothing about until now.
    No, I'm not inclined to believe in mind control either.


    So alright, with those two, I've already rejected the entire episode, because I don't accept the premise. But surely, even given that, it shouldn't be too much to ask for the episode to display internal cohesion and logic?

    The opening I partly missed has Sherlock and Watson jumping out of the window. The last time I tried that, I broke a lot of bones. In fact, fuck no, I know that will happen, so I didn't try that. Glad to see they have magic powers and survive without a scratch. But then again, so has Eurus, so it's fine?

    Then we have a phone call from a plane and a little girl, except the plane doesn't exist and the little girl is the same sister having a breakdown that is currently pushing them through an obstacle course and killing people. That's some serious Jekyll/Hyde wtf-ery, if not to say she's mastered the art of being in two places at once, given that she turns out to be in the manor, but alright, let's assume she can or there is some other explanation (and "some other explanation" is what I thought a lot of times).

    So then how can Sherlock not differentiate between a call from a plane, and a call from a plane that does not exist? If nothing else, a plane is noisy. The engines, the alarms in the cockpit ... how? Though really, given his established intelligence, he really, really should have questioned that one on the from the get go, as the circumstances and the content of the call were quite suspicious.

    Another random bit: the missing glass wall. As glass isn't nothing, it'll always reflect a degree of light. I believe there exist special coatings to reduce the reflections enough that indeed it is almost invisible, but the keyword is "almost" and even so, why would that kind of glass be used there? And for that matter, if it were invisible, why would you even assume there was glass there at all -- initially?

    And like that, it went on. The well Watson was in, shackled, so they helpfully lowered down a rope for him to climb up on, everyone constantly moving between (the super secret) prison, London, and elsewhere, with no problems at all, ....

    I ended up staring blankly at my TV because the plot did not make sense far too often, and I can't say I was too thrilled with the setting either. There's probably different approaches to Sherlock (the series), which then also explain the different reactions, but for me, the draw was the juxtaposition of the brilliant Sherlock and the ordinary world. Here, we have a setting that is just as extraordinary as Sherlock, and hence the joy is gone.

    For me, Sherlock is about solving cases in the real world, exemplified by A Scandal in Belgravia, which remains my favourite episode. This stuff is ... well, like I said, I have no idea what to make of it. It leaves me confused and at a loss.
     
  15. Mutton

    Mutton Order Member

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    This was a pitch for an original screenplay they hamfisted into Sherlock because the writers gave up somewhere mid S2.
     
  16. Eilyfe

    Eilyfe Supreme Mugwump

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    So, I'm done binging Sherlock. Loved the series as a whole; disliked parts of the last episode. Some emotional beats did land -- i.e. the reveal of Redbeard -- but overall I found the end wonky. Eurus felt supernatural in nature, almost like a witch, and the whole situation on Sherrinford strained my credulity.

    All in all, I enjoyed the series more when it was only two guys sitting in Baker Street 221B taking on weird cases. Except for Mycroft I don't actually care all that much for the Holmes family. Ched wrote it earlier in this thread: you were promised a mystery at the start of the show, but more and more the show got to be about its characters instead. Not a bad thing per se, but abandoning the starting premise isn't the way to go about it.
     
  17. Ched

    Ched Da Trek Moderator DLP Supporter ⭐⭐

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    Yup - and years later I feel the same way. The later seasons and episodes shifted too much towards character driven plots. And as much as I loved the characters and their plots I wish it had been grounded more in the mystery format. Could have still told the same over arching story.
     
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